Growing Up in Foster Care, Re-Writing our Stories, and Bringing Business Back to People with Hutton Henry, Founder of Beyond

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: [00:00:00] you know, I went into foster care, but the, the key thing I was told pretty much every day was you're really stupid and as a teenager, I was told I would never get a job.

you find ways when you're young to protect yourself and to do something else.

It's a natural reaction. And in mine, I learned how to code, from the age of eight.

and I think young children, when they can find that thing that really, you know, occupies their time and you solve problems, it gives you that self satisfaction. In one way that was the good thing around that house, because I don't think naturally I would have had the patience to do it.

I like to think something like that can help people out of trouble.

Hello, marginal listeners. Listeners. I'm so glad you're back with us today because this episode is a particularly. A special one. Before I get into my preamble though, I do want to include. Uh, sensitivity warning here as this episode contains discussions of abuse in. Suicide. If you or anyone, you know, is struggling with thoughts of suicide. You [00:01:00] can call or text nine, eight, eight to get instant. And free crisis support in the United States. Check our episodes show notes. For additional resources and please take care. Today. Today, we're sitting down with Hutton, Henry founder, and managing partner of beyond. And, uh, from helping investors demystify technology. In this episode, Hutton speaks. His experience in the foster care system. The early stories he was told about himself. Itself by his foster parents. And finding escape through coding beginning at age. Eight that's right.

He taught himself to code at age eight. Let's not even talk about what I was. Was doing at age eight. He shares how he set his life on a different path by creating his own. Look through a series of key encounters with his biological brother. And it director at Ford and a dentist of all people. Hutton also discusses how his passions for electronic and music. And screenwriting inform his current MNA work and how his most successful. ventures have always come back to people. If you're looking to. Make your own sunshine, both within and outside the context of your business. This is [00:02:00] definitely the episode for you. So with that, I'm excited to get into it.

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: I think what COVID taught us too. And this is something that me and my co founder, Brian speak a lot about. And you know, Brian as well, because you guys have some shared experiences, which we'll get into in just a minute. But I think as it. human race, we wildly underestimate our resilience. We don't think we're going to have quite the bounce back rate that we're going to have.

And I do think COVID was a great exercise in that. I mean, we weathered that storm and of course it was trauma and we've all faced trauma because of COVID and that's fundamentally changed how a lot of us live life. But. We're still here. There was, in those early days, it was very easy to conceive of a world where there's no way we could go on like this.

There's just, that's too much of a fundamental change. How could we continue in this capacity?

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: mean, it's a good test of your world view, isn't it? Really? So whatever glass half full versus empty, something big happens. What do [00:03:00] you do with that? , it's a natural reaction. You can't really change that. and then I think in covid in particular was such a worldwide thing as we know, but also is a mass media thing. So how do you block that out so you can have your own thought? An own independent sort of approach to things even if you're locked in at home because it's groupthink, isn't it? Really?

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: Oh, completely. Yeah. Because even if the news is telling you something catastrophic, what mindset do you choose to be in? Right? And I think a lot of us, we just acquiesced so much to whatever we were told to think or whatever outlook we were told to have. That puts you in a really vulnerable place when someone else is telling you how to think about your future yourself,

you're at the whim of how other people are telling you to live your lives. I think we can probably with that, get into your backstory, because I know. Based on the conversations we've had before, you were someone who was told from a very early age what to think of yourself.

And I think in a lot of ways, you've kind of [00:04:00] rejected some of those stories. So if we could clue our audiences in a little bit and go back to, Hutton day one

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: Well, well day one I probably wouldn't remember but um Uh, but you know, the first five years were pretty normal, but then unfortunately I lost my parents this year i'm going around telling people this because I think it's it's useful to understand and um because it's not about me. It's about how we turn things around really. and, and the long story short is that, you know, I went into foster care, but the, the key thing I was told pretty much every day was you're really stupid and, um, and then to my face. And then as I got older and as a teenager, I was told I would never get a job. And. And I was a pretty quiet kid, and of course that was quite upsetting, but it became quite normalised. Um, so it had quite an impact on how I saw the world and what I would be able to do. So yeah, there was some [00:05:00] messaging there.

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: and then just, just so we can understand, this was your, this was your foster family that was telling you.

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: So unfortunately, so, , so I, I went through a number of foster homes initially, and then with one family and I do appreciate that I had a home and it was consistent. know, to be fair, I, I, I wasn't the only one and, you know, lots of things happen to different people, but at the end of the day. It was the way that they ran the household and it's their worldview, I guess, and, and, and when I look back, I can see that they were probably unhappy therefore, you know, that was coming out on the children. it's sort of a, a mental sort of block that stops you from really being happy. progressing and you think you can't do things. And my, my favorite, quote is from Henry Ford. if you think you can, or if you think you can't, you're right. it's quite hard if you've got that pushing on you all the [00:06:00] time, that little person on the shoulder says, you're not going to be very good. Then, you know, how do you drive past that?

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: I just can't even, um, yeah, I, I just can't even imagine. I never thought too much, honestly, and this is my privilege showing, I never thought too much about the way my parents spoke to me as a child. And, after hearing your story quite candidly, it gave me, it was such a gift.

Like your story was such a gift because it me so much gratitude for the way my parents raised me. I mean, no parents are perfect. but you know, in spite of it all, both of my parents growing up, it's not even that they They told me I was smart. They told me I was capable of doing anything, you know, and it's, it is, it is funny because I feel like as the millennial generation, a lot of us are kind of clapping back on our parents because some of our parents gave us special snowflake syndrome [00:07:00] where they made us feel like We were going to, we were destined to do great things. And that hasn't. in imbued a lot of, this hedonic treadmill and a lot of people of my generation and feeling like they need to achieve, they can always be achieving more because our parents told us anything was possible. So we create these really unrealistic, thresholds for ourself to achieve.

And so in many ways it can, it can feel like an immense amount of pressure, but on the other side of it is, I've never had that self talk where I've thought that I wasn't capable of doing something. I've always been relatively confident and it's because of the way my parents spoke to me or didn't speak to me growing up.

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: I, I would also add it's because of your natural, that nature nurture thing as well. So some of the work I do, we do psychoanalysis of tech teams and, really understand it quite well. I've been doing it for some, some years now, yes, it's really important how people work with you.

But you know, if, say if you're at work and someone said to you, you can't do this, [00:08:00] the reaction could be quite rebellious and like, yes, I can. And it's interesting you say you never really thought about how your parents spoke with you or to you. in all honesty, nor did I, right? Because that was normal. So if, if it's normal to you, you don't think, Oh God, that's really bad. And those guys are over here. It wasn't until much later in life. You reflect on it and think, hang on, that doesn't make any sense, you know? And So, so I do want you to understand, that although they were crappy things to say, and they, what they do is they dent your confidence over time, I do remember being so shy.

I mean, I'll give you an example that in the old days before the, the snow flaky stuff, whatever, used to have to sign for your signature on a credit card. I was so shy. I couldn't do it. just couldn't do it, which is bonkers now because you'll see me all over the place and I chat a lot, and I couldn't say hello to my neighbor.

I could, I could say hello to friends. I mean, it wasn't that crippling. [00:09:00] so. You learn over time that there is a need for inner confidence and how do you gain that if that's being taken from you, or driven away from you, you don't lose it, you know, you fight for it. it's interesting what you're also saying around, if you take it the other way and say, you can do anything, that can have, pretty much the same effect in another direction, right?

So there needs to be balance in how we speak to each other.

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: Yeah, So going back to when you were in that foster care situation at the time, what was your Yeah. Yeah. Self concept. Did you believe inherently the things that your foster parents were telling you or did you find from an early age that you were kind of rejecting some of this narrative and, wanting to prove them wrong?

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: I don't think I had that sort of rebellious want to prove them wrong, but I have a very creative soul. So if, so as a young kid, I, I [00:10:00] was learning two things, which let me escape all that. Rubbish, you know, I'm not sure if I can swear but

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: Oh, you can swear.

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: fine. So that crap I mean that that narrative everything I I can't say to you.

I just sat there and said right i'm gonna do this So that I don't do this but when you do speak to a lot of people that have had these complications you find ways when you're young to protect yourself and to do something else.

It's a natural reaction. And in mine, I learned how to code, from the age of eight. And I also did calligraphy. And the reason why I did calligraphy was because it meant that I got out of assembly, you know, the, the morning sort of discussions and singing. I hated it. So, and I realized that if you went to handwriting class, You could, do that.

So I, for some reason, I ended up learning how to do calligraphy and code, which are all writing type things really, right?

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: It's so funny because they're at odds with each other because now handwriting is basically a lost art. I mean, who who writes anything on paper anymore? So, um, but then you learned [00:11:00] another skill that had a little more staying power, which was coding.

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: which, but

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: but yeah,

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: to the next step, that's about to go as well, right? With,

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: well.

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: other things doing it for you.

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: So then I think it's all about why are you doing it? Right. Are you doing it to preserve some, future for yourself? Are you doing it? Because now it is an outlet for you. And it sounded like for you in that moment, it was some form of almost Yeah. I don't want to, I don't want to say escapism.

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: say escapism.

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: All right. So at that age, you're in that foster home and you're teaching yourself calligraphy and coding. Take us through what happens next. How did you kind of develop those skills and where did they go? Next take you

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: so I think well, I think it's good to focus on code because that's not so antiquated when I spoke to your co founder Brian, we had very similar sort of things. We just found the addiction for creating code. It's problem solving, you know, and, and I think young children, when [00:12:00] they can find that thing that really, you know, occupies their time and you solve problems, it gives you that self satisfaction. So I kept doing that for years. And let's say I started at eight, but I, you know, just continued until I was 16. So, in one way that was the good thing around that house, because I don't think naturally I would have had the patience to do it. If I reflect back, so not only was that good timing because computing was on the up, really enjoyed it.

And we had like films coming out about, computing as well. You know, there's, um, electric dreams and stuff like that. you know, it's coming out in the main media to get to the point. I, it was all home computing. I'm coming towards the end of my foster care. there's been a lot of things that had gone on uh, unfortunately all my teeth had rotted away and, I was in pain for years, you know, and I'd become quite suicidal over a period as well for a few years. and I [00:13:00] can talk about that openly without the ever risk of me ever reaching that ever again, you know, it was just too many things had mounted up. Bad teeth, feeling not so great, very shy, and, yeah, underneath it was this whole thing of code. I like to think something like that can help people out of trouble. You know, because happens to be a needed skill

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: Being you know working with a lot of engineers They're some of the best problem solvers the way that they break down complex problems really dissect it and engineer solutions is It's one of the most remarkable things. That's why I love working with them.

And I often find that a lot of engineers, they are able to distill certain problems in life in such a profound way and break down those problems. And I can just imagine how. Being able to do that through coding could almost give you a sense of you're able to work through complex challenges, not just [00:14:00] through code, but in life, right?

Maybe perhaps you felt a sense of empowerment.

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: interesting because, first I can still remember the self satisfaction you get from just winning, from making something. it's so odd that. Um, even then, you know, I was kind of, I didn't do schoolwork. I loved hanging out with my friends. They were brilliant. the system didn't really work with me in school.

You know, I came out of school with no education. I, I got used, unclassified for everything, including computing, which was, which actually, I think I got a D for computing. But but that was really mad because you know, I and I'd written my friends two projects and they got an a And I got a d or something lower Because they didn't believe what i'd written would work and i'd written Code i'd written basically all that time that would have been 1985 I'd written a system to help people learn how to code. like, the companies now [00:15:00] that boot camp and that sort of thing, all that time ago, I thought, wouldn't it be great to teach people, you know, run this thing and it would teach them in a really nice way how to learn basic, that was the language then, teachers against it. No, you haven't made a calculator, sorry, you haven't got a score. so look, I mean, it's, um, it's a pretty dark and low energy story in there because it's, you know, it's unhappy, but it's really what opened from 16 onwards that became pretty exciting.

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: Yeah. And it's really, it's interesting too, because a through line here is, You were coding. Other people weren't validating your coding skills. It's not like you had other people telling you you're good at this. This is something that you could scale into a business.

This is something you could get a good grade on. But you had this intrinsic validation from the coding and the work you were doing, irrespective of what [00:16:00] anybody else was saying about it. I'd love to harp on that a little bit longer, because I feel like so many people, when they're constantly searching for extrinsic validation,

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: Okay.

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: people to, to tell them, Yes, this is good.

Keep doing it. You're good at this. I see a lot of people like that. And those are the people that I feel like are incredibly anxious. And I know you talk a lot about anxiety and I feel like so much anxiety is tied back to this pining for external validation and for, again, for somebody externally to give you that self story that you don't have inherently.

You're looking for other people to tell you the stories that you're not already telling yourself. So I think that's so beautiful that you had that at such a young age that in spite of when anybody was telling you, you're stupid, you're unclassified, you're getting these grades. You knew that you had something that was worth pursuing still.

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: be up front and I don't know if I knew I just liked it, you know, and [00:17:00] that interesting thing is I did it because I enjoyed it. I did it because I was passionate about it, and I didn't do it for an outcome. And I found even in business, you know, if I do, I love my business now, and I don't really care about outcome from the business.

I care about doing the job and the, times when we have tried to really push it and try and get something, the world will always reject that because it's not authentic. And, um, so I have had periods where I haven't coded or I've, I've moved into more management type things and. I've learned those skills, but I wasn't good at it. And so you have to push and learn. And, and because I'd done the eight years or whatever it took, easily done the 10, 000 hours. So you feel quite at peace and it would be the same thing with music, right? It would be the same thing. with any sort of creative outlet, I just think there was a lot [00:18:00] of luck that computing became the next level of pyramid building.

That's how I've always seen it. the old Egyptian days, people were building towards something that was bigger than them, and I still think that today with tech,

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: Yeah. And I like that you talk about luck too. Because, you know, a lot of people think it's, it's about hard work. And you even, you just usurped that myth too, because you said it wasn't even hard. For me, I just did it cause I liked it. So it wasn't even you being really, diligent and hardworking.

It was you pursuing your passions. But, um, I think sometimes people think that so long as you work really hard at something, you're destined for greatness. if you work hard enough, you're going to be rewarded on the other side. And a lot of success is the intersection of yes, hard work and luck.

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: Yeah. I think the more hard work you do, the more luck appears and then it's what you do with that luck when it appears, you know, something flags to you, a small signal and are you going to be brave enough to do that thing or are you [00:19:00] going to articulate away? And before I came on today, I was like, if I think of marginal, I definitely think it's around personal ceiling that we create, yes, a lot of things come around us. , I studied transaction analysis. Um, it's something I've been doing for the last couple of years. It's an arm of psychology. And found out about this script system about a year or so ago, Long story short, it's about the stories we tell ourselves, which is what you mentioned earlier, I was fascinated and it was like an international course, and when we did the work, when you bring it right back to the core, one message that everyone said, regardless of scenario, whether you wanted to be a writer or a painter or a skydiver, one sentence that was underneath and causing the problem was, I am not good enough. so if I can help people with that, I'm really happy, you know, if I can help myself with that, that's fantastic. You know, it's sort of, is a piece [00:20:00] we hide from ourselves and creates this hidden anxiety. I

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: Just to check in there at that point when. you were kind of getting some of that negative feedback from teachers and still from your foster parents.

Did you ever think to yourself, I'm not good enough.

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: you know I kind of became quite numb from the you are stupid thing happens so often and I have to add the other sentence to that Which is then when you hear this one, you're like, oh my gosh, it was , if you ever used the word think, it created a lot of anger in the house.

It's like, never think for yourself. So there was these two sentences of, you are really stupid and you should never think for yourself. But I did. I mean, obviously, you know, but I wasn't rebellious with that. I would say it was quite peaceful in one way. I just like having a lot of fun outside of home.

That was escape. If you look at the whole story, it's escapism all the way through. But how do you train that down when you don't need it anymore?

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: Got it. [00:21:00] Okay. Let's get, let's definitely circle back to that. because at this point in your story, you still needed the escapism. but tell me what happened after, did you graduate high school Hutton or did you,

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: left

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: you did.

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: I had my first, job. It was selling bedrooms. It was this horrible thing. Remember my teeth are not right. And I've got a stupid name and long story short, it was going around knocking on people's doors, selling them a bedroom and with a no obligation design. And then if they went and did the design, then they had to pay for it.

So it was very unethical. And I eventually ended up trying to sell to this lady and being really pushy. And she was like, was crying and she's like, you know, the reason why I I can't do this. My husband died yesterday and she was like in complete black and I just said, . So when that happened, I bunked off work.

I just didn't know, and it was the luckiest thing I ever did. I took some time out. I found this two page advert from quite a well known company, Ford, and they were [00:22:00] taking on, young people. So I applied for that, and the rest is history, really. I just spent a year. in a non tech role, eventually they gave me a graduate role.

Like I wasn't a graduate. I didn't have any qualifications. I actually ended up getting English and maths, but very, very low qualification, and, um, then went to Ford and I was at Ford for just under 10 years. and if you look at that first 16 years versus the next 10, they are like night and day I had my, first of all, I had my teeth fixed. I went to a dentist. he operated on my teeth three times a week for three months and

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: Wow.

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: there's a lot, right?

I mean, that's a lot of times in a, in a completely rebuilt my mouth. What I have today is pretty much what he put in then. And,

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: Wow.

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: and then he backdated it. To the day before my 18th birthday, which meant I got everything for free.

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: [00:23:00] Wow.

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: right? He's so cool.

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: He changed. I mean, would you say he changed your life?

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: were three people who changed my mind.

My life was my brother. When I was eight, when he gave my real brother, gave me a computer. I didn't have that outlet. I wouldn't have done that. there was this, dentistry thing, and I saw my teeth for the first time the day before Christmas. I was like, I looked at them and I was so excited and no wonder I smile a lot today.

abby_3_10-09-2024_091837: I, uh,

hutton--beyond--_2_10-09-2024_141837: help it. and then the, the next thing was I, I had the. job at Ford and at the end of the near 10 years I basically had a 15 minute interview with Reg and Reg was the IT director. Um, so he was looking after 5, 000 people in IT in Europe, why I got a meeting with him, I had no idea, but he called me in. And he said, young man, you know, what are you up to? And I said, well, I've just been to, um, I'm connected to my brother and sisters by then. And I'm, been over to see my sister in New Zealand.

I'd been, [00:24:00] whitewater rafting. I'd just seen another world. And I said, I just, something says I have to leave. Long story short was

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: He'd, he'd basically said, look, you know, um, at the time you came into the company, we had just signed off a graduate only. policy for the entire firm says I was really against it. Um, so what I did, I'm the person who authorized your employment I never helped you at all, but I. I wanted you to, understand, that I wanted to see how somebody without a degree would do. And he said, you've done exceptionally well. he said, it's supposed to be my job to try and keep you. But to be honest, I think you've got a really good plan. I think you should go and travel the world and just see what you can do. was in tears. I mean, like, you know, that, I mean, that is, if you take those three people, my brother, the dentist, and then Reg, I wasn't going to find that out for a long time. they exposed [00:25:00] me to a lot of positivity and completely changed the trajectory of my life.

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: I have spoken with some other founders who've had similar upbringings or, you know, faced a lot of, societal marginalization outside the context of startups or before starting in their business ventures. And what's characterized a lot of these stories is. There's just certain people who punctuated their life who created so much opportunity for them and seemingly which is the smallest of actions.

These little micro moments can make such waves of impact in someone's life. It's not much for that dentist to backdate the day of your operation.

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: my gosh. Yeah.

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: It was not huge for, I mean, it was huge for you. but for Reg to admit someone without a high, without a high school degree, but for you, it created so much opportunity.

it's, you could even look at those as luck, right? but at [00:26:00] the same time, I've spoken to a lot of folks as well who think that you can create your own luck in many ways through deeply interpersonal relationships, um, making positive impact on other people's lives.

Can you create facets where doors open up for you in unanticipated ways? So it's just a theme I love to see throughout some of these stories. And it's always so incredible when people remember the names of these people so distinctly. And those are just such resonant. Points in their lives. Are you still in touch with these people?

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: I think I'm fortunate with Reg. Obviously my brother, yeah, we're very close and then my, dentist, I went to see him years later, you know, drove up with my sports car and I, bottle of champagne and I just, I have a super confident, you know, guy in his thirties, broke down in tears when I gave it to the, you know, the bottles here.

I said, you've changed my life. And he was so cool because he, because he was like, Oh, it's nothing, you know, [00:27:00] it's nothing. didn't even take that. Um, but he actually made, I mean, I know it's an odd thing to point out, but he did make it kind of weirdly fun. and like, he'd start drilling into my teeth without anesthetic. I go, Oh, and he goes, and he was like, Oh, okay. I was just, it's just testing. So you're so used to this now.

So he was trying to make it entertaining, even though it was a stupid amount of work. So he was quite a character,

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: Yeah. We need more characters like that Again, I think they make such waves of impact without even realizing it. Okay, so fantastic you so after Ford You had been at Ford for how many years cumulatively? 10 years. And then you take that opportunity to travel the world. You've reconnected with your biological siblings at this point.

Take us through the remainder of that journey. What did you discover when you were traveling and then what did you do thereafter?

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: with Ford, you know, we, you know, it was a large company when I was there's 500, 000 staff you know, we had private, private planes and things so I [00:28:00] traveled the world with them so they opened the to different cultures and I became really interested in people and I had an m& a job then and that was my last project large project and it went wrong because there were some issues and, they'd bought a big car company and merging it was nothing to do with merging the tech.

It was to do with merging the people. Um, and the people on the other side were refusing to do things, but they didn't tell us. Now, if you look at, my foster care, one of the things you'll see is that you lose your voice. And in a mergers and acquisitions, the, team that's acquired tends to lose its voice. I know that feeling. Well, I also know what to do, which is to get in. You don't stand on the side, you don't complain. exactly what I did as a foster kid. I remember my very first day in foster care, and it was so bewildering at five years old, I'm not with my mum, I'm with these strange people, and I'd already been to quite a few homes, and I [00:29:00] don't even know why I did it, because I've kicked myself now, but I ended up doing it. volunteering to help with the washing up and I got on a stool and helped with washing up. And the reason why I find that funny now is because I bloody well got lumbered with that task for the next 13 years. And there's like so much washing up I've done. but anyway, it sort of gets stuck in and, and try and make the best of it really.

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: And people kind of having their voices quieted. I mean, yeah, you can relate directly to that because you from an early age, you became incredibly shy, right? And you weren't speaking and you didn't even feel comfortable writing your own signature. What are you, what are you doing now?

Well, I guess let's. Let's let's understand. So you're doing, you're traveling and you were introduced to traveling internationally through work, in doing so, when you were traveling, what did you bring back from those experiences and how did that kind of culminate in your next business venture?

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: the real thing there was, Understanding different cultures. And [00:30:00] so I went from forward to HP and I'm getting more involved with mergers. And you know, we have people barricading us away from data centers because they didn't want change. So it's understanding people under pressure who are worried. So the the main things really was understanding how to communicate with people from different cultures And understand that they're super different and that's great.

And that's what makes life really interesting and then from there I spent probably 14 or so years as a freelancer in tech And working for Lots of different types of company, investment banking, retail, but I also took, I needed a gap matter how much I'd achieved. I wanted some kind of education. So at the age of 30 ish, I'm going to say 31, I ended up. a B. A. and M. A. in screenwriting, so I did nine years of that and on top of my job, which is super [00:31:00] odd, I just didn't want to learn anything more about tech, and what I really wanted to do was learn something that was to do with people and those nine years were incredible. They were really, really good fun because then I had a half artist and half corporate life and they were extremely ether end. I only went to work three days a week and four days a week as an artist for nine years.

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: Did any of what you learned in that screenwriting class intersect with what you were doing in your freelance work? Do you find that there's any kind of themes that can generalize from one to the other?

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: It is a big core of my business today. because I write stories for investors, you know, they buy a company do whatever we do technically and with people, but you need to understand that story and it mustn't be technical. We can't, you, it has to make sense. And so there's a big factor around people, [00:32:00] nine years of screenwriting. you study engagement. you understand, like, you know, we have lectures on, you know, what's the opposite of hate, know, and love and hate. And so the opposite of love, for example, most people would say hate, you know, the opposite really Is ignoring people,

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: Yeah. That's a really good point. Yeah.

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: it was that type of thing, you know, what causes violence, the, why we, you know, I know why we learned here because you have to depict this in, in screenwriting.

I know your husband, I think, writes, isn't that that's right. Yeah. So, right.

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: My husband, well, he'll love that we're talking about this on the air. Um, yeah, he took a screenwriting course too, and he has this acute ability to, whenever we watch movies, he can really point out when. character writing is really flat and when someone's motivations don't make sense and I do think there is so much psychology that goes into good storytelling, you need to believe someone's motivations for doing things and [00:33:00] you also need to care.

Right. You need to have a vested interest in the outcome of the story. I've learned so much by just watching movies with him, like doing these character studies with him. he also is, childhood educator. He works at a school for children with language based learning disabilities. And so much of that is psychology as well.

I mean, no matter, and you and I have talked about this, no matter what business you're in, we're all in the business of people. I think particularly the work you do now with beyond, which I'd love to get a little bit more into shortly. So much of it is you can understand how successful an acquisition or merger or a partnership in general is going to be based on the people behind it are the people who are operating in these spaces operating from, for example, the time we have today.

a good place of self worth? Are they telling themselves good stories, about themselves? And in turn, how does that impact how they're treating other people? I mean, all of these things are critically important because you can have the best [00:34:00] technology in the world, but if you have a team of co founders who are all wildly insecure and are all land grabbing from one another, trying to, prove something, or they're feeling proprietary over their work, for example.

That co founder breakup could be the demise of the company, you know, that's just a simple example, but

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: So there's two things there. So first of all, you mentioned believability. And so I have to mention my absolute favorite word ever, which is verisimilitude. uh, and that's to do with suspension to full belief. You need verisimilitude in your storytelling for people to buy in. So it's a bit of a nerdy word. The, the other aspect around, founding teams, I genuinely was as a teenager, quite in, I was really obsessed, not to a point of study, cause we just didn't have the resources then, but I was really obsessed with trying to understand why pop bands would come together. They make great music. And then they, at a very early age, when they're at the top, they fall apart.[00:35:00]

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: yeah,

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: Now I know why. You know,

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: tell us, tell us why, Hutton, why do they fall apart?

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: all know why. Because when we work together, there is a fusion and, keeping that fusion going and working with egos, you know, I mean, I had to learn to listen properly. Your, your background will, We'll really drive some of your management and you have to eradicate some of those.

If it doesn't work for other people, otherwise it can be a really good driving force. So the way I like to put it is, Rolling Stones, they're still together. They're still having a great time. Some good management in there. Somehow they would have had bus stops where they worked out.

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: okay, I think that's a great segue. How are you ensuring through Beyond that every company that's going through an M& A is going to be the next Rolling Stones?

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: that's a good question. luckily in this business, I don't have to do that. Cause I, or we have to do is assess it for the investors. would say lucky. I mean, to be honest, it is a passion of mine. So if I do [00:36:00] see disharmony or problems, and we do see companies who literally go and go for a buyout or investment, because they've got tension in the management team they've been living with for a decade, And they can't fix it. So they think, Oh, if I go and get a private equity investor in that will fix the problem. And it will, because they were private equity investors. I think team isn't working. Who do we need to get rid of? And if you ain't going to do it yourself, we know someone else is going to do it for you. so to answer your question, we look at people, technology and processes. Processes is the really important one. That is the output of the other two. the three things we look for is communication, consistency and care. The three C's. Everyone thinks they employ us to look at. Technology, which we do, but we're looking for an overall theme and that's where storytelling comes in. It's where psychology comes in and within two or three weeks, we will understand the business really, really well, [00:37:00] present that back to the investors and let them understand the risks and opportunities. And then if they need or they want to, we can work post deal to try and help them, you know, sort those Generally, what we tend to help with is that things are going to change post investment. we need to help them the changing pace, the changing governance and to actually still enjoy their jobs.

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: Yeah, because that's huge. Like you mentioned earlier, a lot of times people feel quieted in these new settings or they feel that the work that they're doing has been upended in some way. They're maybe facing threats of obsolescence.

Um, is there any kind of broad stroke ways that you, deal with that or you help, the companies that are being acquired, um, usher through some of those transitions?

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: You had said so, in, uh, Our company, core value is people first. And if you look on the back of our brochures, it's, helping people through adverse change, which is kind of an odd thing to talk about in [00:38:00] M& A, but it's the actual problem is that your best people will leave really quickly and then these other people will feel worried.

And, you know, you just get a them and us situation, be fair, buyers are much better at it now. You know, they are aware of that, people. investment at the beginning. and the broad strokes really, when we used to do that in intensely, it's like, how do we help you shine? You take it back to me as that five year old who did the washing up on that day one. That is exactly what I teach them to do. In an m& a it's like tough shit, right things have happened. What are you going to do to stand out? What are you going to do to sort of step up because it doesn't matter what happened in the past They're just going to notice your work going forward

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: yeah, that's a great call. before we talk a little bit more about the latest and greatest with beyond, if folks want to get in touch with you to learn about how to leverage some of your services, I would love, Hutton for you to just. Mention, is there [00:39:00] anything else that you would love our audiences to walk away with having listened to this conversation?

I know you have a couple good one liners some good catchphrases that you've accumulated along the way So I want to make sure I create space for those and anything else any other nuggets You'd love to leave our audience with

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: yeah. I mean I I feel like i'm saying this pretty much every other day now, which is market trumps tech When we're building products and we're trying to build it around people I see founders, especially go up and down, you know, and they own the ups and they own the downs. it's a sort of a provocative statement on purpose, but the real thing that's exciting in a company is the market behind it, not the company itself. When, when something comes on our desk and we'll look through, you know, a 50 page document, I go straight to the market page to see what that market looks like and how needy it is. And the reason why it's really important for people going through that journey is, we will have self [00:40:00] doubt. I'm not good enough.

This is not working, blah, blah, blah. But it's actually really around, understanding the customers. Their problems and maybe even their customers problems. It can go down quite a few levels. And I tend to say, the number one thing is we have to understand we are not in control. If we understand that life is a lot easier.

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: yeah

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: know. What do you think about that? Um,

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: Yeah that resonates so deeply. I mean and you and I were talking before we hopped on about we've gone through a number of pivots at rev science just to be fully transparent and You know, the thing about startups, particularly early stage is ideas, change, tech changes. The people are what can be that constant through line.

And for me and my, my co founder, Brian, the thing that we are really adamant about remaining constant on is the who of, Who is our ICP? Who is our LDO customer profile? Who do we want to be serving with? Whatever the technology is, whatever the idea is. And once you anchor [00:41:00] yourself around the people, whether it's the type of culture you want to build your own company, the people you want to back your own products and or the people you want to be serving with your products.

If that is kind of your centering point, then it's. This pivoting between idea and different product evolution, those all just become vehicles for the people that you want to serve, and it makes it so much easier to not get attached to ideas because for me as a founder and what I've witnessed in other founders, getting attached to ideas can create more of that roller coaster of emotions because an idea can take off and then the next week it might not have the resonance that it did before.

So being really crystal clear on what in your business do you want to remain pervasive? What is more fleeting and almost just in service of that more constant thing is really helpful. And for me and my co founder, it's always been people at its core.

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: that's great to hear. That's great.

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: Um, okay.

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: met both of you. So.

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: Oh, that's a [00:42:00] great compliment coming from you Hutton. Well, tell us a little bit more about beyond what is the latest latest and greatest and if folks want to get in touch What's the best way of doing so

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: I think the latest is, is really just simplifying. Um, so you mentioned pivot and, and really what we do is all we're going to do is, is this assessment. So we do diligence on behalf of investors. Well, we have done though, is, is sort of started to help founders understand the secrets of diligence. and we have spoken to investors and said, would this cause any problems?

And they said, no, because we can't find any good companies. So if you can help them prepare better, that's good for all, but to keep it very simple, it's sort of really sort of refined down to that. we have a company where it's small. It will remain small and, and we like what we do and we, we love hanging out.

I mean, we genuinely, it's quite fun every day. and I think one thing [00:43:00] I've, I've understood is that we're all givers in the, in the team. It doesn't matter what age or, background, the other thing is, it goes back to that passion thing that you were talking about earlier. We all love what we do in our different capacities. So it's more of the same. We're not going to do some silly scaling journey. and I don't mean that silly about anyone else, but in our, in our world, we know what we don't do and that's created a lot of peace in the management team.

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: Yeah, and I love how this is a real full circle moment You've always just pursued what you love right from a young age whether it be coding calligraphy Electronic music. I know that's still a very big part of your life screenwriting And even with your business now, you're doing what you love.

And I was on, your company's podcast. I was meeting with your business partner, Simon, and he and I were talking about how here's the beauty of doing what you love. If you do what you love. You're really good at it.

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: that's true. Yeah. I love that.

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: You're really good at it and you're likely a lot [00:44:00] better at it than other people who don't love it as much.

So you have this differentiating factor and people are probably going to notice. So I know Simon, your business partner has this adage where it's, follow your dreams and the money will come and that's rung true for you at various points in your life. So I'm so happy that's continuing to be the story that you are writing and continuing to write for yourself.

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: No, well, thank you for coming on to the podcast and he's the smarter of the two of us. So,

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: No, you guys make a fantastic team. I'm so fortunate to have both of you in my circle. Um, great Hutton. there any place that folks can follow you? Any socials you want to plug?

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: Yeah, the easiest way is if you connect on linktree so linktree slash hutton henry, and you'll find lots of different resources and ways of connecting with me

abby_4_10-09-2024_095136: perfect. We'll put that in the episode show notes so folks can get in touch. Well, Hutton, thank you so much. This has been, I mean, I expect nothing less of a conversation with you, but now I'm so glad that everybody else gets to hear your story and all of your wisdom [00:45:00] and just inspiration.

I feel like I always come away from these conversations feeling so enlivened. So thank you for doing that to me, but also for our audiences more broadly.

hutton_3_10-09-2024_145136: thank you happy for having me and um, Looking forward to seeing what you're building

thank you for listening to the marginal podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the team at Reb science, with theme music by Siddhartha. You can find full episode show notes@marginalpodcast.com and follow us at marginal podcast on Instagram. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast.

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