Fleeing Ukraine, Helping 3,000 Displaced Job Seekers, and Having ‘Shining Eyes’ with Diana Kocheva, Founder of London Tech Community

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: [00:00:00] everything was going pretty good until Russian invasion in, 24th of February 2022. I put everything on pause in startup because unfortunately our CTO died on the rubble. Some of team members, they joined army. So, we lost funding and also part of the code.

UK government just opened a new program for Ukrainians, to move here. And I applied for this. I moved to London and I was lucky to find, a job and I signed my first job over here in the week.

every day I was receiving around 300 messages from people who I never met and they were telling me, okay, you found a job for yourself, find something for me.

Hello, marginal listeners. Thanks for joining. Owning us again this week you are in for such a treat. Today. We sit down with Diana. Diana Kuchera who founded London, tech community, a vibrant space. For Ukrainian tech professionals to find their flooding abroad. In our conversation, Diana shares how she flooded. Ukraine under Russian [00:01:00] invasion, leaving behind her successful art tech startup for. For a new life in 2022. After landing a new job in London. London within just one week. That's right. One week. Dan explains how she was thought up by. By countless displaced job seekers on how to do the same. And this culminated. In the creation of the UKs largest tech community. Diana. Diana also discusses why diversity builds better products, the superpower, a female. Female leaders and how passion is a differentiator in today's job climate, particularly. Really one characterized by AI. If you're looking for meaningful conversation on topics. Of innovation, creativity and human connection. This is definitely. The episode for you. Thank you again, Diana for being so, so forthcoming and generous. With all you shared this week. And with that, let's get into it. for any event manager, I guess it's a big privilege, but people don't want to leave. but for me, it's also a sign. That people really miss offline events.

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: And, um, I do believe that yesterday event for community that I was [00:02:00] hosting, it was all about showing vulnerability. And again, in this social media campaigns, you will never read the stories on internet. You just need to be offline and to hear these stories from human beings in front of you.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: I can totally see that. Yeah, in a world, especially since COVID, we're so remote, we're remote first. We have this pull towards being. Human to human interaction. And I feel like sometimes we underestimate just how important that is because I'll find myself in situations like this too. When I'm actually in front of people, I can't stop.

And sometimes it's almost, I start divulging parts of myself to people and I don't even know these people that well, but there's something so, I don't know, we are social creatures, right? Like we are meant to be in community. And as much as we like to, Transcribed think to ourselves that being on our phones and being on our computers is a great proxy for that.

It's not. And that really comes to light when you are in front of people and you feel how different it is.

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: Yeah. And that's why globalization is [00:03:00] really great thing from one point, but from another, When we're constantly moving, it's so important to have actually your people near you. And here I'm not talking about race or religion. No, no, no. I'm talking about the same values.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: I can empathize with that. Even since becoming a founder and becoming an entrepreneur and someone who doesn't work for someone else, someone who's not in a corporate environment, it's really critical to cultivate a community of other founders People who can relate directly to what you're going through, why you're choosing to put yourself through this.

I mean, because from an objective standpoint, it doesn't make a lot of sense to a lot of people from a financial point of view, from a quote unquote work life balance point of view. This work could seem insufferable to certain people. And when people don't really understand your why it can feel incredibly lonely.

So I've even found as I started this latest venture, I've really gone out of my way to cultivate a community of other founders your people with a similar [00:04:00] value set, because when you find yourself in a room full of people, if those people don't have a similar value system to you, you can feel like you're alone in that very

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: Yep. And so that's what I was feeling for a long time in corporates. That's true.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: And it's crazy because those corporate companies are some of the biggest companies in the world you'll work for 50, 000, a hundred thousand people, but you can feel so insular that nobody is quite relating to your why. And you're also posturing, right? While you're working there, you're almost becoming a version of yourself.

That isn't your authentic self, just to get through the day to day of that work. So then you feel like you're almost detaching from yourself. That's crazy. as well as detaching from other people. Not everybody has these feelings about corporate, but I generally do find when I talk to other founders, they, they understand some of the existential crises that I went

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: I'm always telling I became founder, not because I dreamed to be one, just because I was like, I need to show it how to make it. I know how to make it better. Kind of. Yeah. And also [00:05:00] again, in my case, when I was always exception of the rules and I was the only female, the only Ukrainian, the only young one, I was feeling not only lonely, but I feel like I don't belong there.

When you feel like you're not enough, you're working even harder. I was doing X10 that my other colleagues were doing because I was still feeling that I need to prove something to someone.

And well, if I would be a business owner, I would want such people to work for me nonstop, all the work will be done perfectly.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: yeah, it is so hard that displaced folks or marginalized folks, the work doesn't just speak for itself. Sometimes you need to be twice exceptional to stack rank next to your peers. And so I've also found that marginalized groups, sometimes have some of the best work ethic and also some of the best rebound rate and resilience just by nature of what they've had to go through and the work that does or doesn't get [00:06:00] accolades but that's incredibly exhausting to feel that you need to prove yourself and reprove yourself time and time again. then you look at other folks for which that's not necessarily the case. And again, that feeling of being deeply alone and deeply misunderstood can set in.

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: And, uh, yesterday in the event, we were talking about women in tech leadership for displaced ladies. And, I do believe that women everywhere in the world, and again, being at the conference, Forbes 30 under 50 when they combined, brilliant ladies from 30 under 30 and 50 under 50 from all over the world, all together in one place.

And for me, it was a life changing event just because I realized that all ladies. With different backgrounds, with different life stories, from different countries, and actually obstacles or positions, they have the same struggles. So we all have the same problems, all questions were about, okay, how to work in male [00:07:00] dominated society, not because male are evil.

we're not here to generalize things. We're here just to understand how we're navigating ourselves. Within this culture, because that's the reality. You can call it differently, but still, we're living in this world together and we need to navigate it. And, , for me, it was interesting to hear some insights at the, at yesterday event, when I can see how even leadership roles, there was a lot of brilliant Ukrainian business ladies who moved here after a Russian invasion.

And their leadership style even changed. They became working mostly with soft power. before we were always hearing, you know, this quote, be kind to everyone. Everyone have their own war inside. We did understand that. But plus, now we have like actual war in our house. also it gave us more empathy to look at other people's [00:08:00] situation.

I'm not here talking only working with our Ukrainian colleagues. Usually we have people from over the world who are working in tech. We already have really big privilege as ladies to be more empathetic.

When we're coming to the room, we can feel and sensor much more obstacles, details than male. Again, just it's our survival instinct. It's not also from a good life. But it really help us to navigate in business environment. And, I can see, , that with some great obstacles or changes in life, , ladies are using it even more.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: Yeah. Yeah. So when you talk about soft power, are you talking about soft skills, like the ability to have high emotional intelligence to read the room

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: Yep,

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: Yes.

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: in UK, like living now in England, when nothing is direct, and you can never hear yes or no, you need to read it all behind the lines, even in contracts. [00:09:00] So it's not important, it's necessary to have the skill. But also here, I'm talking about like next level about emotional intelligence.

even when some colleagues, they can not understand themselves and you need to help them to navigate to the right decision or to help them to make a decision. Also by that, I mean, not to be so controlling, like to trust people, and be super transparent. I do believe that it's important for me personally, it's super important.

That's why. Working in like some large corporations, it was very challenging because I really always need to understand why, why I need to do this. I hate to use this job. , I really want my job to make an impact and I'm here in this planet to change things, not just make money for more money. I mean, I know that for some people it can be really valuable, but it doesn't work for me.

Um, so. I do [00:10:00] think that, female leaders have this superpower and they need to use it even more.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: Couldn't agree with you more. So you mentioned that you are, you're Ukrainian, but you're living in London. You're living in the UK, which is really funny. I can completely understand why you might need to read between the lines there because the UK is a culture where there is maybe less transparency.

There's more posturing and it's the keep con and carry on of it all. But yeah, this is clearly an environment. For which you are not, you were not born in the UK. You've needed to kind of get used to these systems. I'd love for you to clue our audiences a little bit into how you ended up in the UK, and maybe a bit of the origin story of what brought you to where you are

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: Long story short, I was born in Ukraine, but I was lucky to, study abroad. I was living in nine different countries and was working worldwide. And during COVID, I came visiting my parents and they just closed the border and that's how I ended up in Ukraine again. And, I started living in Kyiv and I was [00:11:00] surprised and amazed that it's the best city to live and work.

I was IT consultant for a decade. And in Kyiv, I realized that, well, I'm commercially super successful, but still something is missing and I'm not happy. And art was my biggest passion since childhood. I was always reading about it. I was always drawing or going to the museum. And, I was thinking what I can do, how can I combine two words?

I was really good at building products for someone else. And I thought it's a great time to build something for myself and for my passion. That's how the idea of our tech startup was born and everything was going pretty good until war started, uh, until Russian invasion February 2022.

that's how I put everything on pause in startup because unfortunately our CTO died on the rubble. Some of team members, they joined army. So, we lost funding and also part of the code. First month, I was just [00:12:00] helping my family. I was just helping the team actually to survive.

And like, I was helping logistically how they can move somewhere to the safer place. Second month I was calling every VC I have worked with because I worked with them a lot. I was always doing tech consultancy for them, like due diligence, to check if the startup they're acquiring, they're good or not, or I was also helping their startups.

So I really had, I was lucky to have a good network, international network. And I started calling them. once I had 14 calls a day. And, I remember, One Irish, uh, VC who told me, I love you. I trust you. I know that you will, deliver, but no one will give you money.

And I can't give you money. all your team is just like too much of a high risk or your team is in Ukraine. well, it's not going to work. And it's also architect industry. Well, obviously it's not priority now. [00:13:00] Um, He asked me, what's your plan? And this was first cold shower for me because before I never even felt that, okay, what I'm going to do, where I'm going to go.

And that's how idea with UK, came up. They just, um, UK government just opened a new program for Ukrainians, to move here. And I applied for this. I moved to London and I was lucky to find, a job and I signed my first job over here in British art tech startup in the week. And I was sure that.

Everything is working here so quickly, you know, it's a big city, uh, but, I, I didn't know the rules again, just because when you're visiting London, even for business trips, that's what I was doing before for my FinTech clients, I can see the dynamics, I can see high speed of the city. But I would never imagine actually business society from the inside when it's like super conservative, super slow.

So [00:14:00] I was like, okay, I came here, I signed an offer in a week and I was sure that everything works like this, but apparently no. And every day I was receiving around 300 messages from people who I never met and they were telling me, okay, you found a job for yourself, find something for me. For me, it was very interesting experience because I never worked as a recruiter.

I never worked as event organizer or community manager. Now happen to be one. I thought it's a great idea to answer those questions just in one telegram chat because I thought I will save the time. But I didn't. That this telegram chat will became so big and there will be more questions and that's how I started invited some experts like industry leaders from here from my personal network, who started answering those questions just because I didn't know.

I mean, I didn't know. I was always working in tech, mostly in business development sites or sales sites. I didn't know which certification [00:15:00] you need to have here as a, project manager, for example. And that's how we started gathering every Saturday. 98 percent of my community, uh, became, female tech entrepreneurs.

it's not because in Ukraine every tech specialist is female, it's just because we have martial law and if you're male and you're between 18 or 60, you just can't leave the country. That's how we have really nice representation now in every conference. If you'll meet Ukrainian in the UK, , in tech, 99%, it will be a female.

So that's how new stereotypes are born in. But it's not actually true. I wish it can be true, but we're still not there. But, yeah, there's historical background of things. why, uh, now we have female image of, Ukrainian, in tech two days ago, I was celebrating that I helped find a job for 1001 human being.

Again, everyone is laughing. Uh, yesterday at the [00:16:00] event that I was hosting, our partners who are actually recruiting company, one of their directors for like UK region, he approached me and said, what you're actually doing. And I was like, telling like, well, I understand that brains are working as images.

I was always as matchmaker for businesses for like my clients or like technology. What is the best technology? What is the best planter? I'll find everything. The same goes with people when they're telling me their background, when they're telling me their story. not just showing CV. I really needed a contact and actually speak with people and ask them questions.

Then I have an image where they should work. It can be a company or another human being that I met before. and I was just matching them. And also how I'm actually helping people. I'm just pointing them on their superpowers. And I was like, okay, that's your USP again, just like in sales, this year's USP, you need to go to market with that position.

And he's like, well, it's actually what recruiters are doing. So maybe I [00:17:00] became recruiter, but I'm still not admitting it. And I'm not getting paid for that. But that's my social impact project. So by now we have more than 3000 members. and I do believe it's kind of like, something that you're doing and can never be finished or delivered because, I helped someone to find a job, they got redundant or they quit So we have also new wave of migrants, new wave of migrants. We have, new people from Ukraine are coming who are living in different country. Now they just switched it. They decided to move to the UK. So I do believe that it's unstoppable work.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: And it's, especially in this kind of employment environment, , particularly in tech, right? There are more redundancies in the, socioeconomic environment. We are going through a lot of layoffs. The job market is incredibly tough. So yeah, I see an ever present need for something like this. I do have a question because It sounds like you're a bridge builder and you're a community builder and whether that is building a community of [00:18:00] displaced Ukrainians who are looking for work or, creating building bridges between individual people and companies like you are a facilitator and you almost see how these puzzle pieces work together, which Also makes sense to me because I know that you are an artist, right?

You had an art tech startup and I can imagine, you know, artists are also configuring ways and identifying patterns of what fits together. So all of that tracks completely in my mind as to how you came to be what you are now, but I'm still very curious about how you landed that first art tech startup role in the UK within a week's time, I believe you said. What were the circumstances of that? I'm sure you get asked this all the time, but how did you land that role so

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: I do believe it's also a story and one more proof that you need to let yourself do what you want to do, because, it was my third day in London when I saw that, okay, there's really nice, Art fair that I want to go. I went there and I fell in love with one, one print. And to be [00:19:00] honest, it's not the smart decision to buy a new art piece when you don't have anything, because all I have left from my old life, it's a small backpack with laptop, a lot of swimming suits for surfing, because I went on vacation of surfing.

I survived because I was. abroad, um, and, none of my art collection or, unfortunately, my apartment didn't survive. So, all I have left, swimming suits, a laptop, and a notebook. And, uh, I was like, no, it's amazing print.

It's really nice artists. I need to, it's definitely not a basic need. So I went home. I don't remember what I was doing on Friday, but on Saturday I met a friend with whom we're friends for 12 years. She was living in London for a long time and it was our reunion After a long time, and we went to drink coffee in her favorite place.

Then we went to Columbia flower market to, um, and bought some flowers. So for me, it felt like my normal [00:20:00] weekend in, uh, Kiev, when you're just meeting with friends, like something from your normal life. And I was like, ah, fuck it. Uh, let me go to that fair and buy that print. I just went on the bus and I bought this print and I was working with this print, um, in this fair.

And I saw our tech startup and, uh, I started chatting, with the lady here and they're like, no, we're not hiring. But I was like, I'm not, I mean, I'm looking for a job, but I'm just curious. Like how did you start it? And I was like, okay. Now we're not hiring. Here's our email. Here's business cards.

You can just email someone. And then, Another guy approach who was a product owner. And he was like, no way you're from Ukraine. Yeah. Well, our tech startup, what you were doing. So I told about my experience. He was like, let me call our founders. He called founders. , they just run away from the meeting and we had the chat.

So when they invited me for their office on Monday. I was sure we'll just drink coffee [00:21:00] because I was genuinely curious what they are doing, how they started, because our tech startup is not something that, any business developer or a technician will think about it.

It's like super niche inside niche. And, I really want to just to know more about people who are creating it. And we really got along very well. And they just, said like proposed me. Immediately right there to be head of their new division.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: Wow. Yeah, that is such a beautiful story. I love it too, because it wasn't even that the people you bought the print from were hiring. It just so happened that there was somebody else there who saw that you were buying the print. there was that moment of you meeting that person who then connected you to the rest of his team. And there is this through line of, you pursue your passions. Sometimes the money will follow and I've spoken to a lot of entrepreneurs on this podcast and is kind of a [00:22:00] recurring theme of doing what you love. A lot of times will rear fruit. Maybe it's not going to make you money right away, but it's, you're going to create luck for yourself. You're going to create moments of serendipity for yourself when you're living very authentically and Connecting with other people over your shared passions I can totally see how that laid the groundwork for you to to get that career and then also for you to build this community of telling other folks how to do the same.

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: it's also funny. It was like, who are you asking? If you're asking a business, Diana, I was like, no, you should also check the market if there is a market fit before, before you're pursuing your dream. check if there's money inside, because I was always working a startup, mentor and, uh, I was now I realized that I was always super strict.

I was like, nah, it's not gonna work. I'm like always skeptical one if talking about money and business. But if you're asking me just like a human being who is like [00:23:00] super supportive, encouraging, I do believe it. And also, um, it's funny how I see this rule working here in London just because I do believe here is work for everyone.

any startup that you can imagine, they have office here. Any company you can imagine, they have an office here or they need representative here. And, just because here in this market, you're competing with the whole world. You really need to be not only different. You really need to be the best. And by that, I mean, you need to have shining eyes.

If you're really passionate about the industry, uh, where you're having interview or about the product. You have so much more advantage than other candidates who will be super qualified, but they're just not passionate. I do believe in the era even of AI technology. Of course, you need still to pass this CV checkers, optimize everything, but still [00:24:00] people are choosing people even till these days, especially nowadays. and, you really need to have passion to be chosen now.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: Wow that is so beautifully said and it's something I think about a lot in the age of AI as well because the reality is. So many of the administrative tasks of what we do, those are going to get automated away. at the end of the day, people are going to be hiring people for the people they are not for the tasking.

They can do the, the skills they have. Those aren't real differentiators, especially in this era. Age of technology. You can teach yourself almost anything, but what is innately about you is what you're deeply curious and passionate about. And I love this notion of having shining eyes because it is undeniable when you meet someone who's doing something that they love, you feel it.

It's palpable. It almost makes you want to go and find that thing for you because you see that it just [00:25:00] basically enlivens that person. And I've talked about this too, when you're doing something you really love. Better at it. better at it. You're undeniably good. People can't not notice you. And I think that's going to become even more and more true in this era of technology where a lot of these things that aren't very differentiated are just going to be, you know, taken over by robots and computers. So at the end of the day, we're people at our core and that that resonates. I would love to understand a little bit more. Diana, when you initially were speaking to that VC about potentially getting investment to keep your Ukrainian startup going and he told you, you know, there's no chance it's too, it's too risky of a business venture.

No one's going to invest in this. Did you ever feel in that moment a sense of Defeat like there's these really pinnacle moments in a lot of our journeys where we have a decision. We have a decision to keep going, or we have a decision to choose differently. What was that like [00:26:00] for you at that stage when you were first told

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: Um,

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: no by that particular venture capitalist?

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: if to be completely honest, uh, I guess inside me, when war started, I already realized that, okay, I don't have any capacity, to deal with that now because. Values have changed like immediately maybe before I even didn't realize that but it was like inside That month when I was like calling everyone constantly bombarding everyone with emails I guess it was just for myself to understand that I tried everything, you know it's like to give yourself permission to put it on pause because It was too painful, seriously.

Uh, I remember those times So the funding wasn't the only problem I still didn't, uh, complete that grief and loss of my, colleagues and friends. And, I do believe that inside me, I just needed to. Well, I tried everything, you know, I just couldn't find funding.

I'll just put it in post and then think about it. [00:27:00] so when I heard this, no. It was maybe more than 100 no's in three weeks or so. So when you're a sales manager, you have like professional deformation and it's part of your journey. You just know that, you need to hear those. It's never easy. It's not like, okay, it's no, and I don't care.

I'm that good. Uh, it's still sometimes. Uh, getting personal, but I do believe that, it was really like the best friends advice I could receive, and I'm for forever grateful Andy for telling me this in the right time in the right place. I guess if someone would tell me this.

In like just several days after the war, I would say like, okay, shut up. I know what I'm doing. And I'll be optimistic by that time. It was right phrase in the right time.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: Yeah, and that's great context to by that point you had already gotten a series of nose and so you did at that point that is when you realized maybe you wanted to take another [00:28:00] course maybe you wanted to look for work elsewhere rather than continue to keep the startup going. and that's really important signal to listen to your situation is so, so, catastrophic, right? Like you literally were under so many societal pressures that there was things literally barricading you from continuing to operate this company. Some of us, it's not that obvious. Some of us still have the choice to continue operating companies, even if the customer feedback we're getting is not that great.

Even if we're starting to get crickets from investors and in entrepreneurship, a lot of founders are told like, Be delusional charge on, block out the noise. Don't listen to the naysayers. But there's actually a lot of value in listening to some of that signal and you gather that signal and you knew particularly at that point, you put your ego aside and you thought the reality of the situation is this is not sustainable business anymore because of the harrowing circumstances of people you had lost in the process, but also because of some of the feedback you were getting from other people in the [00:29:00] ecosystem. And You looked in another direction. And I think that's so powerful because I think a lot of founders have a really hard time looking in another direction, pivoting their product, pivoting their life, you know, their, their life path or what they envisioned for themselves in their future. And I guess your, entire life story is characterized by pivots and changing course and starting a new.

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: Yeah. And I always thought that this is my superpower, but what I understand in therapy that actually it's so hard for me. So I understand everything, by time, but still it, uh, it's usually taking me six months. To like to try everything I can't just give up. So six months I'm really losing all energy, health, money just to prove like, okay, I tried everything.

So maybe the best advice for every founder is like, okay, when you have this inner voice and you need to also understand that it's not your inner critic, but actually inner voice that is telling you, well, it looks like the [00:30:00] market is still not there. Just pivoted. Not to, not to lose those six months

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: Yeah. And I think too, if we're speaking about women and superpowers, I think we have a really strong inner knowing sometimes like a really true, inner sense of. I don't know I feel things before sometimes they become very material if I started this feeling in my stomach where it's like ooh, something doesn't feel quite right about this situation, our level of progression, the level of feedback we're getting, generally I'll come back to that feeling that I had a week, two week, three weeks ago, and it will be something very for having me. Very obvious at that point, but I felt it very early. So I think listening to that inner knowing and maybe your sense of intuition that I, I do feel that a lot of women have is another great superpower as a founder.

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: and it's necessary in this world just because now we have so much noise from the outside. We all thought that Vipassana is for some, I don't know, posh people who [00:31:00] are tired of life.

I do believe it should be like really for everyone at least to go once a year to have seven days retreat and be silent and not to read or listen to anything just because of the noise from the outside. It's so hard to listen to your inner voice then, and I still have no idea how to balance this.

Living in a really big city and like with a very high speed being super sociable like me constantly communicating with people yeah, I'm still also trying to navigate this journey

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: Yeah. It is tough. Yeah. As someone who is more extroverted and loves to connect with other people, you need to get really clear on what are other people's stories that they're telling me and what is my self story? Like what are my own original ideas versus what are these ideas that other people are imbuing in me? And in order to do that, you have to get quiet with yourself. And when you live a very social. active life characterized by business [00:32:00] opportunities and community. You have to be really intentional about creating that time for just yourself. So makes tons of sense to me. Diana, one of the things that you mentioned to me early when we first met, which has just continued to stick with me is, You've always been the exception to the rule, even when you were still in Ukraine.

I mean, now it's, it's obvious to understand how that's the case in the UK. You're in a big city and you're Ukrainian, but always found yourself to be the exception to the rule, even when you're in, Living in other countries and you actually kind of see that as a superpower as well.

So if you could clue our audiences a little bit into how you see your uniqueness in given situations actually working to your advantage.

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: do believe that back then I was always thinking it's like a disadvantage. Like, well, uh, I don't belong here. I look different from all other people in the room. So I need to be silent, not like be super comfortable, always agreeing on things and in terms, just doing my best and working even harder.

But, [00:33:00] this year I met amazing female founders. who showed me that even by their own example, when they have even a little bit of power that you can actually change things. If you have a choice to hire a male or a female developers, they were always choosing the female. for me, it was very strange to hear because I came from business world and, uh, I always was sure that any business owner want just to hire the best one, you just don't care what's their background. then female founders told me that that's how you can actually change shift and things. And I started using it as my, motto. And now I'm telling that you need to use your power to empower.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: I've spoken with other female founders before and I can see that being the case because When you are the only woman in an organization or the only woman on a hiring team You're going to vouch for change that nobody else is going to vouch for you are going to [00:34:00] consider barriers to entry, certain language, things that other people aren't even going to see, that means that your impact is going to be so outsized, given how few of you there are, you're going to have such bigger magnitude of impact because you're going to be the only one that can contribute that perspective. think about this a lot because I've had a lot of experiences early in my startup career where I was the only female in an office of all male colleagues. I had a lot of poor experiences and my friends would ask me sometimes, why don't you just quit? don't you just leave startups? Why don't you go to corporate? And I kind of thought, well, if I do that, it sounds cliche.

Well, if not me, then who, right? Because if I leave, do you know how easy it's going to be to replace me with a white sis male the same job? And then what is that company going to look like? You know, are they going to account for some of the things that I got them to account for? No, they're not. [00:35:00] And, always clung to that idea of as hard as it is when it gets really hard. That is more of a signal to me that I should be there because there is still more change that needs to happen. And that change isn't going to happen without me. You know, I completely understand if not everybody has the mental emotional energy to do that, but I'm someone who gets a lot of fulfillment out of that. And that actually energizes me. In ways that lot of other types of work wouldn't it's less about, you know, the material day to day of what I was producing. It was more about the ways that I was able to transform a lot of the company as I was at from the inside that really filled my cup. And I did that by being the exception to the rule in the ways that in the ways that you have been.

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: I do believe that it's not like, okay, we're holding the whole world, but that's how we're doing it step by step, lady by lady in every organization, in every country in the world, [00:36:00] and then we're shifting everything,

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: Yeah, you told you shared a really cool anecdote with me, about how displaced individuals actually from a purely practical standpoint, diverse perspectives on product makes better products. And you actually shared with me a really interesting story about a Ukrainian and the impact that they had on a very popular product.

That is a story that's not broadly told. I'd love for you to share that with our audiences if

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: of course. And, That story always worked for my male friends for working in tech, and we were having these discussions why they need diversity. you know, when you can tell this story when someone is super skeptical, just because this Okay, this is just a story. I'm not telling you that it's just good, for society.

it's just good for your business. So, Snapchat, that was originally, Ukrainian guys from Odessa. There were 18 of them. And, they had, iOS developer who was a lady. I was telling that it was already exception of the [00:37:00] rules of those times. First of all, because she was a lady second, because she was brainstorming with them.

So they were on product, a brainstorming session. And she just suggested, that it will be cool to see how Like she will look like a male all other males in the room. They were like, no, it's stupid Who would want I mean we as boys we don't want to look like girls as like who would want this? This is really bad example, but she wasn't shy and she wasn't silent I guess I'm afraid that if it would be me, I was good.

Oh my dear like no one liked my idea I guess I will be shy but she standed for this and That's what made a luxury a snapchat You And that's how their product got viral because obviously every girl in the world wanted to see how they look like as a male.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: And what a metaphor, right? It is, it is a metaphor for the patriarchy. Let's not, let's not, under acknowledge that, that of course a woman wants to see what she looks like as a male, but of course a male would never want to see what he looks like as a woman. How [00:38:00] telling is that? But at the same time, by being honest with ourselves about that and having that voice in the room of a woman who wants to see what she looks like as a different gender. There became the whole filtering technology that basically made snapchat the empire it is today and now has other apps copying snapchat for its filtering capabilities. So had that person not been in the room in the first place and had they not spoken up, we wouldn't had. Had one of the biggest tech giants we have to this day. it is so true from a purely practical standpoint, DEI builds better products. It checks for bias. It opens up worlds of opportunity that wouldn't otherwise be there, but we get so in the way when. We hear change. I had another person on the podcast recently, and I asked her, why do you think we have this initially to be threatened by DEI?

Because there has been a lot of backlash to DEI, particularly around COVID when there was a lot of DEI efforts, a lot of, coaches being brought on to corporate environments, [00:39:00] there was a lot of backlash. And I said to her, why do, why do you think some people fear that by creating accessibility for one group of people, it is going to cannibalize access for another group of people.

When the research shows that's actually not true. It's not a zero sum game. But why is that our first reaction? And she said, I think people are just really afraid of change. I think that's incredibly true. Also for people who haven't had to change as much. when you look at the people in the room, right?

Oftentimes, if they're people who've grown up with a lot of privilege, they haven't needed to weather change or periods of uncertainty. Whereas if you look at folks who are socially marginalized or displaced, their whole life is characterized by change. So they're not afraid of it. that's the beauty of bringing on folks with those diverse perspectives and backgrounds. They're not only going to bring the, the unique perspective, but they're also not going to fear the change that comes of bringing some of those questions and those ideas to bear on a conversation.

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: And my friends are always laughing that actually my surname Kocheva translates as [00:40:00] nomadic, so I just didn't have other choice.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: Yeah, you're always a nomad. You're always kind of ushering through different areas of your life, trying on different job titles, different identities, and it's worked your benefit. And I think it's all kind of culminated beautifully in the community you've built. Now, I'd love for you to share a little bit more.

I know we talked a little bit about the London tech community and how it kind of came to be, but. Can you share a little bit more about what users can expect of the London tech community moving forward? If someone happens to be a displaced individual living in London, what can they expect of your community moving forward and how could they potentially get

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: So, uh, I'm really like open for any collaborations or suggestions. I'm constantly looking for inspirational speakers and, uh, partners, and, talking about clients. I talking about community members, , what we are providing them. So we have a lot of online and offline events. For example, yesterday, , offline event was focused [00:41:00] on woman and tech leadership for displaced ladies.

And we're just talking about challenges and opportunities that is bringing, in a month, we'll have a big networking party, in two weeks, we'll have online workshop on, uh, UX designers, CV and portfolio. So people who already. they will share their experience. Because if you would expect that everyone can get the job in London in a week, well, it looks like I was just super lucky, because it takes months.

And I'm always laughing now that it's a full time job to find a job here. And it's much easier to hear it from someone who already made this path. So you won't repeat their mistakes. And most of our events, they're all career oriented. and I'm telling everyone that your skills and experience is enough.

Seriously, if you think that you're moving to a new country and you are starting from zero, it's not true. You're bringing your brains with yourself. You're bringing, your experience. [00:42:00] You just need to package it differently. It's like customize a product in a new market. So you see again, the same things as in sales.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: Yeah, and you're also bringing your uniqueness and your passion, right? Like you're bringing yourself as a person and that is a huge differentiator. Again, it's your skills, but skills can kind of be propagated amongst a bunch of different people, but I'm sure a through line and what you speak to folks in your community about is lean into your passions because that's when you can get bright eyes and you can really stand out.

In a set of, a huge interview panel.

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: And, uh, I do believe that when you're meeting like minded individuals and you share your story, that's how you can benefit and help others. And that's how others can help you. So storytelling for me is everything.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: I love it. Perfect. Dinah, if there's anything else that you would want audiences to walk away with having listened to our conversation, what would that be?

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: If you have a female founder friend, please reach [00:43:00] out to her and just ask her how she's doing. And if she'll tell you that she's totally fine, just ask her how you can help her.

because recently I found out that, the life it's so much easier for strong individuals. You know, the ones who are always showing I'm totally fine, always smiling and, these people need even more support and help than you can imagine.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: that is incredible advice. You never know. what somebody's going through. And I mean, even you, Diana, right, you come off as an incredibly strong willed, impressive, confident woman. We have no idea what somebody's encountered in the last 10 in the last 10 minutes. So I love that idea of reaching out, offering support. even if you're not part of a 3000 person community, like the London tech community, building one on one community and just reaching out to people who are, in your immediate circle can go such a long way, particularly for founders who are navigating some of the ups and downs of entrepreneurship and maybe being the exception to the

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: Yeah. And, uh, [00:44:00] let's not be lonely in those rooms and invite others.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: Well, Diana, thank you so much for being so, so generous with your time and sharing your community with our audience. We'll include more information about London Tech Community in the episode show notes. We will let folks know how to get in touch with you. And from that, thank you so much again for being so open and vulnerable about your past and how you've brought that what you're building

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: Thank you, Abby, so much for inviting and actually for doing this project. you choose not the easiest path for sure, but again, I see shining eyes and you are in the right time and the right place. Thank you for this.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: Oh my God, that's the best compliment I've gotten all day. loop.

diana-kocheva_2_10-09-2024_160820: listen to me.

abby_4_10-09-2024_110820: That's what it is. That's what I'll do. Thank you so much, Diana.

thank you for listening to the marginal podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the team at Reb science, with theme music by Siddhartha. You can find full episode show notes@marginalpodcast.com and follow us [00:45:00] at marginal podcast on Instagram. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast.

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