Brian Krebs, Formerly Incarcerated Serial Founder: Being Adopted, Life While Unhoused, The Early Entrepreneurial Itch & More (Pt 1 of 2)

Okay, Brian. So I want to start with actually how I first met you and what my first impressions were when I first met you.

I love

Brian and I worked at a startup together before starting the company we have now. And I remember the first time I interviewed with Brian, I got on a virtual zoom call with him and he had this very impressive audio setup.

If for those who are watching on YouTube, you'll see it now. He had this podcast mic and this [00:02:00] arm, the stand. And I was incredibly intimidated. I was like, Oh, I'm playing with the big leagues. Cause I was using my, my Mac book and I was like, this is a true professional.

So that was my first impression of you. I was like, this is somebody who does like audio tours. He's kind of like doing the rounds. So that was my first impression. I, I know. And then I, I believe a couple of weeks after that first interview, I I kind of knew at that point that I was going to be an extended and offer by your company.

And I was just doing some of my own, research and I was listening to podcasts and I found one that you were on and it was a very industry specific podcast at the time we were both working in kind of this mobile developer ecosystem. And you were on a podcast talking about your product at the time, but in that podcast, it was also the first time that you had actually spoken, spoke openly about your journey with incarceration and being unhoused.

[00:03:00] And I remember listening to that podcast, and at the time I was pretty sold on joining this company, but after I heard that podcast, the deal was done for me. I was like, this is somebody I need to work for. I guess maybe you are just as impressive as my first impressions. Like, cause that, that podcast was great, but yeah, it's so funny how podcasting characterized a lot of our first interactions together.

I love it. Yeah. I didn't realize that it was, it's a weird timing really, because I had really kept those two worlds. Totally separate until then, background, my history, my childhood and, , my working life, they were wholly separate. So I kind of just grew some courage, I guess, and, and started talking about it on that very podcast.

So it's really weird how the timing worked out. You were, you were able to hear that just before you came on board.

Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to understand [00:04:00] why that podcast, why at that moment in time did you decide to kind of come forth with some of this information around your, your background?

So I have to give at least some credit to Tommy, he's just a really good dude, and I felt comfortable sharing some of those things. it coincided with a time in my life where I started realizing that the reasons that I had kept those two worlds separate up until that point was really just fear. Uh, those two worlds aren't really separate. Honestly, we're just humans. whether we're in the role of a, kind of a worker or employee, , at a company, or we're just walking around with our friends and no doubt about it. Like there are other, uh, factors involved when you're at work in terms of professionality and things like that.

But at the end of the [00:05:00] day, I share my story with people. I know my personal life for a pretty specific reason just to maybe hopefully reach out and touch someone that, you know, struggled through similar things and make them feel like they're not alone, like I felt for so long. And really, it's very much the same thing in a working environment where just because you are at a company and in the role of an employee at the moment doesn't mean you haven't had struggles, maybe similar to mine.

So I just realized that. , pulling that wall down that was built pretty arbitrarily, , just made sense to achieve the same goals I, I'm always trying to achieve.

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And I think too, you were with someone who made you feel safe. And I think that's so big. You need to feel kind of psychologically safe or feel like you can trust the person with that information, all the while. Actually, you were trusting countless people with that information because a lot of people beyond [00:06:00] Tommy listen to that podcast.

But I think it really goes a long way. Did you have any reservations going into that discussion? Was there anything that you You chose to not disclose or you were hesitant to disclose for whatever reason.

, not really, although I will say that there are, and I don't know why, I think it's actually because of responses I've gotten in the past. I just generally have historically felt more comfortable disclosing things about, I, And, was incarcerated, things like that. Sometimes those things, oddly, it depends on the person you're talking to, but sometimes those things can actually even be like glorified in a way, uh, in almost a sort of really strange way by some people. like, oh, that's really interesting. That's, that's really cool. You know, you don't always get that. Sometimes you do get this weird glorification. So maybe because of those responses, I've been conditioned a little [00:07:00] bit to be a bit more open about those things, whereas, and they're so intertwined, but at the same time period of my life.

My struggles with mental health suicide attempts and things like that. I do tend to just generally have a bit more fear around sharing. And while maybe it wasn't top of mind consciously, you'll probably remember I did not talk about, , what really could be considered like the root cause. Of those symptoms, which is my, my struggles with mental health. So yeah, I suppose maybe not top of mind, , consciously, but I probably do have some, some bias between the subjects I'm, I'm more comfortable about talking, , about and the ones I'm not.

Yeah. I mean, I've even noticed that with our relationship. I mean, I've known you now for, a couple of years. And I didn't know till much more [00:08:00] recently about the mental health component of your history. and I can understand why. And I, and I completely resonate with what you're saying about how some of these elements can be glorified too, especially when you're in startup culture.

We've talked about this before, like being a drug dealer as a business, you were a business operator. And especially with the release of shows like breaking bad and things like that, there is kind of this romanticizing of that whole system sometimes depending on who you talk to. So I can completely understand And acknowledge why you may have parsed those things, but I'd love to at this point.

I'd actually love to get to the crux of. where that started, what was the inception point of a lot of these struggles going, you know, dating back to your early childhood.

So if you're okay with that, I'd love to start from the very, very, very beginning of Brian Krebs

yeah, yeah, absolutely. And and it is the very beginning in my particular case and and others to find themselves in my situation. So I was an orphan. I was orphaned at a very [00:09:00] young age. I don't know much about my history. But I was, in very, very early in my life within days, probably weeks at most, I was relinquished to an orphanage, probably. spent some time there, about three months. Before I was adopted by a white couple who was, who were having trouble conceiving themselves, in Baltimore, Maryland. , so I was born in Busan, Korea, and I was adopted as really an infant at three months old, , to this, this white couple, , in the U S so that. shaped, drastically shaped my life in, in my childhood for sure. And, and to this day, no doubt about it. , the trauma of the loss of my, my mother, especially for some reason, I fixated on her, my birth mother. but my, my, both of my parents, of course, [00:10:00] uh, biological parents paved the way for, what in myself turned out to be manifested as anger it doesn't have to be. I've now met many, many, , intercountry adoptees. Sometimes it manifests in anger. It doesn't have to, but for me, it definitely did. Anger, fear. There, I think those emotions are pretty closely intertwined often. And. Uh, for me, growing up as a, as a really young child, I was, I was very violent. I was prone to fits of like big, big emotions and I started getting in, in lots of trouble at a very, very young age. My earliest memories start around second grade I remember getting thrown out of class a lot already being put on these very specific programs for problem students. So that only caused the, the spiral to spiral further, just, , another reinforcement of how I was [00:11:00] different and, warranted. Extra eyeballs on me, essentially. And, that kind of led to a lot of violent outbursts probably around the same age in, in those, you know, very young,, elementary school years , getting in fights and things like that. , and, uh, the, that kind of culminated in, my adoptive parents just kind of. not knowing what to do and eventually throwing me out when I was 15.

Can I ask , what is,, what does that look like to have your parents throw you out at 15? what does that even look like?

The the weird thing is, this is something that I've realized much later in life, is that a lot of people have trouble empathizing with The fact that I never really bonded with my, my adoptive parents are the only parents I ever knew, but I didn't never really had any sort of bond [00:12:00] with them, which is usually just taken for granted between a child and, and their parents. For example, and, and this may ruffle some feathers and I don't mean anything negative by it, but when they died, I didn't have the sort of reaction that a lot of people would just imagine is the normal reaction to your parents dying. at that time, at that kind of early age, while I did not have that bond, that kind of normal bond, if you will, with them, it still stung deeply. Every time I felt abandoned by them. the abandonment of being thrown out on the streets at 15 is certainly abandonment, but, uh, or it felt like abandonment to me, but it wasn't the first time because 15 is pretty late. In terms of my mental health struggles. So by that time, they had already, , thrown me into various mental health [00:13:00] facilities for juveniles. For long stretches and, and, you know, Quite a number of times, and each time it happened, I just felt kind of abandoned again. I, it just felt like the next logical step. I was on my own often. I felt like I was really all always on my own. So when they threw me out for having drugs in their house, I was selling drugs at the time. so, you know, they were just kind of protecting themselves legally, to be honest. I didn't feel any particular sadness. It was just, the only difference was I had to go live on the streets. And, , that was a big change for sure. But that's a change for anyone that finds themselves unhoused.

completely. I can understand how Like you said, this was kind of one in a series of events where you felt like you were being abandoned or your parents were kind of turning your back on you. But, even earlier than that, , you were kind of abandoned as an infant [00:14:00] too. It's so unfortunate that this was such a.

Recurring theme in your life. I think at the same time you've built resilience because it's happened so many times, but how unfortunate for that to happen to a child at 15, you're so used to being abandoned, right? and, and the reason I ask is, you know, much like you said, people can't sometimes can't empathize with your situation, not mourning the loss of your adoptive parents.

I can't empathize with that because I have a great relationship with my parents. and I remember Your parents, one of your parents died. Right after I joined your company, and I didn't know all of this context and, I think it makes a lot of sense the way you're explaining it now, I'd love to understand a little bit about, okay. So. You were kicked out and you kind of almost went willingly, it sounds like, right?

Yeah, yeah, basically, it didn't make a big difference to me. I mean, don't get me [00:15:00] wrong, like, before then, I had never been unhoused. So that

was a big change

and a negative one, for sure.

Mm hmm.

My

life was was weird. After that I was in high school, your early years of high school. And I eventually, but after a pretty short time, really, a matter of weeks, I ended up My best friend at the time, who's unfortunately dead now, he, let me sleep in his, in his truck. So I had a place to sleep. I was still going to high school periodically. I had never really been, a consistent

So, and this didn't help my attendance for sure, but I did still go periodically. with him, he was a little bit older than me. He was driving. Obviously, I was, I was sleeping in his truck. So he drive us both to school. Sometimes he went to school much more than me. He [00:16:00] graduated He was almost like a good influence on me. He actually maybe increased my attendance rate.

While I was, I was unhoused and, but, but I'd leave a lot. Like I, it just wasn't my thing. I didn't want to be there really.

And I'd have a lot of violent outbursts there as well.

Yeah.

police called on me many times. I was pretty well known at this school for just being a kind of a troublemaker. I didn't last too much longer. I did drop out. , it's pretty tough. to high school and doing those things when you're number one, not interested in the first place, but number two, you're, you don't have a place to sleep. So I did, I did leave. It was just a social location for me anyway, really

At that

point. And I just kind of did what I wanted really. And, , one day I did finally drop out, but, , that really freed up a lot of time for me to get myself okay. off the streets. So I, , I kind [00:17:00] of ramped up my drug dealing,

Right.

and, uh, built, a, a real business,

out of it.

And, , it became no longer a hobby, but a means. an end. , so I took it much more seriously, , to, to get myself off the streets really, and I, you know, thereafter, I was able to start, , living in motels, , really, really crappy hotels, , in the, the Baltimore area that didn't mind. renting a room to a kid, basically.

Yeah.

are

Minor.

let me

Yeah.

and a close friend not too long after that was murdered in, in one of those

, actually, so they're not nice places for sure. But, , I was off the streets and, I was, by that point in my life, I was actually enjoying the freedom and the independence.

I'd always been a very independent person and I didn't mind, my bar wasn't high. I didn't need like [00:18:00] a turndown service. Just being able to run my little business, um, which I, Really, really enjoyed so many different things about it. The money was great, but there also came with a lot of, , clout and even power later on. , not at that age, but, but later, uh, there was a lot of reasons to like it for me, , kind of based on the, the, the human I was back then and, uh, obviously just staying off the streets and streets and being able to eat regular meals. Yep.

this is so interesting because I think people assume that staying the course and staying in school is the best pathway to economic freedom. Right. If you stay in school, that is going to afford you more resources that is going to keep you safer. But I think that is only true within certain contexts.

That is only true if you have parents whose roofs you're living under and they're feeding you. But if you don't, then going to school, and I [00:19:00] mean, now, I mean, I don't know, at the time, when I was going to high school, I had to pay for lunch, meals weren't free.

So, if you don't have those means and those resources at all. At home, then school can actually be something that, is a barrier to you being able to exercise your own economic freedom, and kind of accrue capital because you're spending all your time in a classroom.

And it's, it's a much longer term play there,

Long run it's better,

You have to deal with your hierarchy of needs kind of from the bottom up. So, yeah. , I knew kids that in, in that Baltimore area, uh, that, um, you know, didn't have electricity a lot of the time. I don't know how they were expected to excel in school. It really does depend on your situation. I completely agree. Yep.

That's such an interesting paradox. I'm so glad we touched on it. Tell me a little bit more because now, for all intents and purposes, we're getting into your entrepreneurial story. So tell me a little bit more about what you [00:20:00] do. You know, operating this business because it, it was probably your first business.

, my first little business was actually loan sharking. I found, , that scraping together some, some money even change would buy, , like small cookies or whatever. And some kids, in fact, a lot of kids didn't have the money. they wanted a cookie. I'd lend them like a quarter or 50 cents or whatever to buy the cookie and then just charge them, , interest essentially. , I didn't know what that was or that that was actually, , a legitimate business model out in the world, but, um, I know language for it, but I, I just found that it worked and I was making money that way. And soon after that, I had an idea because it was a small school and there was only one woodshop class there was a system whereby, , kids would rotate in and out of it throughout the year. [00:21:00] I just realized that after kids. have do their final woodworking project and rotate out that project was collecting dust or it was really just tossed in the trash or whatever so i'd basically give them a little money for it and then possess it and then actually like create these hand drawn catalogs of the The projects that I had for sale, and I'd sell them to the next kids rotating into the class.

They didn't have to do a project. And these overworked underpaid teachers, they, they didn't even realize they were grading the same projects over and over again. so I, I, that actually became a much more lucrative business. Then the loan sharking business, but it also created a black market for these projects where kids were being robbed for their projects. One kid would sell me like five or six different [00:22:00] projects at once. And I'm thinking like, where, where are you getting these projects? Well, he was going around robbing kids. , so that was bringing a lot of heat onto me. So I shut the whole thing down. But in the end, it was actually quite lucrative.

And that was the moment when I realized I really, really enjoyed this. Not only could it, you know, change my life financially, also it, it was just, I had a knack for it and I just really, really enjoyed doing it. I enjoyed, I didn't enjoy the classes. So during a class when a teacher was trying to teach me math or something that I could actually probably use in the future, I was there like sketching hand drawn of my inventory and dropping them into people's lockers.

So, that was my first foray into quote unquote business, I guess you could say. Uh, and yeah, After that, I, I guess, I don't know why, but I, I just knew that I could sell drugs, and, uh, I found an [00:23:00] opportunity, and I, I started selling drugs to, just have money, really,

Okay. So this was before, right? This was before your parents kicked you out as

That's right.

That's right. Yep. And, and my, it was my father, actually, my adoptive father found drugs in, in his home, a very devout Christian did not appreciate that, um, threw me out. But that really was the tipping point for me where I was like, okay, this is, I kind of have to do this now full time. Uh, not right away, but I realized this eventually when I kind of felt the sting of being on house really. And, uh, from then on, that's what I did for, for quite a few years, actually, dodging police, , and, and other law enforcement and, all culminating eventually in, my first ever time being, as an adult, , shortly after, , my 18th birthday.

I was actually just turned 19. In fact, and, , [00:24:00] being locked up for the first time as an adult.

an adult. So you had been locked up previously as a minor.

Yes, yeah, all those mental health struggles, the violent outbursts, the suicide attempts that gets you locked up pretty quick as as a minor.

And these juvenile mental health facilities, they not all I'm sure, but at least in my experience in Baltimore, they masquerade as mental health facilities, they call themselves mental health facilities. your your parents. believe

Right.

health facilities, but They're not. No one is there to help you. If anything, the adults there are there to take out their anger on you. So are getting beat up every day. there probably was more adults to child violence there than child to child violence.

There's plenty of the latter as well. But Yeah, it's it's pretty [00:25:00] horrific. , some of those facilities have been shut down since I got a little random check in the mail, , when I was in my probably mid twenties, , a class action lawsuit that I certainly wasn't expecting. But yeah, a lot of those are now shut down. I'm happy to say, I'm guessing maybe there are some still in operation, I would imagine, , but I spent a good amount of time in and out of those in my, my younger years for sure.

That's crazy. I mean, you hear about some of those camps and I mean, celebrities have been big whistleblowers here. Those camps that parents and their children too. And they're basically, parents think that they're behavioral, like corrective facilities, but they're just super predatory and awful. So, yeah, I mean, those things still happen and I can empathize with certain parents too, because if they don't have all the information and they think this is going to turn around their child's future and give them opportunity, I mean, at that point, [00:26:00] I, I can't blame them for making that choice given all the information they had, if they were equipped with information that might not be at all representative of what's going on in those facilities.

for sure. Yeah, it's hard to blame the parents in this case, for the most part, once you reach that point, you're pretty much at what's end, you just

Yeah.

Yeah. You're desperate.

reason my parents threw me out.

Yeah.

They just didn't know what to do. I now know what I would do. Should I ever become a parent? , but it's, , it's tough. It really is tough. And, , my parents had. Just a very few resources. , they, the only thing I blame them for at all is they're almost wholly uncurious nature about adoption

Got it. And this is going back a little bit, but you just made me think of it. Were there any, when you were growing up with white parents, was there any attempt to introduce elements of your Korean [00:27:00] culture and kind of educate you around where you came from? Or was that not really something that was discussed?

There was a very brief attempt and I shot it down immediately.

Thing is, I think. That type of thing is incredibly important. I'm pretty fully against. Intercountry adoption, but I will say that in the, in the cases where it does happen, still introducing a child to their birth culture, I think is incredibly important, but it has to happen pretty naturally,

and at a young age. Um, and it has to be. , introduced and, and maintained as something really, really positive and it takes a lot of effort. And my adoptive parents just didn't put forth that effort by the time they tried to introduce me to my birth culture at this sort of Korean culture festival sort of thing. [00:28:00] I was already like a teenager.

I was against standing out at all, really, I will say, I absolutely harbored an incredible amount of self hatred for my own Asian ness. , if I could have changed one thing about myself, I would have made myself white. at that age. because of that, I rejected my, my birth culture so swiftly and, and with such , uh, aggressiveness that they never really tried again. I hated myself. being Asian by that point and there was there was really nothing they could have done by then to change that I had to Accept my own Asianness and love my own Asianness On my own after that and it happened much much later literally until my late 20s

Got it. Okay. That makes, that makes a lot of sense. all right. So that was a bit of a derailment, but I think it was really [00:29:00] important to speak to that. And I know it will probably come up in subsequent topics, but, back to you being locked up as an adult, right? Cause for all intents and purposes, you were as a child, as a minor in these behavioral facilities, , but, or these mental health facilities, but as an adult, you were put in.

adult prison. Walk me through that experience. What was it like?

That was, , definitely different than being a child in these mental health facilities, for sure. I was in there for a short time, less than a year. Um, not much less, but less than a year. When you're locked up for less than a year, in Maryland at the very least, , and you're not in on a federal charge, you end up in, a very, very low grade sort of facility. , the interesting thing is, , I knew a lot of people there and a lot of them were either just coming back from, on their way to, Like state [00:30:00] prison you're, you're there for a much longer period. So. you're you're definitely there with murderers and and stuff like that, but , a lot of people there have something to lose. They're not there for life or anything like that. So my experience is going to differ from others experiences who did, um, like very long bids as soon as I went in, I was on work release. First of all, was actually kicked off of work release because I came back a couple of minutes late one day. So

you explain? Sorry, Brian, can you explain what work release is?

yeah, sorry. Absolutely. So work release is a setup that has to be approved by a judge. who sentencing you, , to essentially you have to get a job. I already had one. Actually, by this point, I was already working in software development.

Oh, no way.

I was, really, , a complete mess, but, , it was a, , a [00:31:00] short stint in which I was actually living with my adoptive parents again at about, um, 19. I had already dropped out. I was just kind of like, I wasn't really doing much, honestly. And I remember my adoptive mother coming to me with an ad circled in the local paper, was this job opportunity. In software. And she knew that I had an interest in software, which I had actually developed even while I was out, , robbing people and, and, you know, committing a lot of like violent crime. At the same time, , I was also like messing with programming, at night. at my, my father, my adoptive father was an early adopter of computers because he was in like it and not a programmer, but he was, he was in it for a like tractor company, basically. So he, we had a computer when others didn't, even when I didn't have like, , a Nintendo and [00:32:00] like stuff like that, that other kids had, we had a computer. I was programming on this computer, , from a very young age, actually, I found it really, really fascinating. Um, and I never really told anybody about it, but my adoptive parents knew.

Mm hmm.

she had circled this ad in the paper, , and kind of like, was like, look, if you want to be here, you have to go get a job. I went for this interview, not expecting anything. And, , that's where I met who became a mentor and I would Say even like second father to me, , Pete, who was running the software company, a local software company, just outside of Baltimore. And, , he hired me for some reason. I don't know why I had no actual experience I started working for him. taught me a lot and I was kind of honing my programming skills in a real world setting. And that's when a lot of things kind of went down long story short. Someone had [00:33:00] slashed my tires in front of my parents house. the night before. and so I had to get a ride into the office that day. , I was called by my sister, said that people were trying to break in. To our parents home. , , once again, I was selling drugs.

I was not supposed to, obviously it's the reason they kicked me out originally when I was a kid.

Yeah.

so I was still kind of defying, , their requests, a pretty reasonable request. , Ex at the time. She had this idea in her mind that she knew where I kept everything in my parents home. So she set up a robbery with four, four people she knew, , and had them kind of try to break into my parents home to, basically steal my drugs and money. Um, In the end, they never actually got in and cops were called by neighbors. And by the time that I heard about it from [00:34:00] my sister and managed to get a ride back to my parents place, the cops were already there. It was too late. I couldn't go into the house at that point.

And, , my father didn't know.

Yeah.

on. So he let the police in and of course they searched and found,, a whole bunch of cash and a whole bunch of, , weed is what I was selling at the time. Thank goodness, because anything else would have had me locked up a lot longer. That's, that's how I saw them bring out the bags as evidence.

And I knew that I was, uh, going to get locked up. So I gave my friend my cell phone and a bunch of cash that I had in my pocket, , which I later spent on a lawyer and went on in for many hours of interrogation. And, when I didn't give anyone out, they quickly. Locked me up. , my lawyer kind of fought for work release here. It was my [00:35:00] first offense as an adult. so I was granted work release, but now I had to tell Pete. this guy I'm working for in software development,

Yeah.

I was getting locked up, he had no idea what I was doing, in my other life. So I'd explain what work release was, which is as soon as you have a job, I already had a job, or you can get a job, a lot of people go into like fast food or whatever. You can actually spend your days. at work, but you have to come back to jail at a very specific time. And then you're really just sleeping there and eating breakfast. really what it comes down to and like showering getting ready, obviously, in a totally separate dorm, they're allowing people to have work release. There's no violence happening in this, this work release storm. , so it was all pretty chill really. , and that was great. Honestly, I'd hang out at my office [00:36:00] program all day. I'd see my girlfriend even she'd meet me there. It was almost like not being locked up at all, but I did come back late One day, uh, they immediately, kicked me off a work release and then I ended up doing hard time for the rest of my, my bid.

when you had to tell Pete, how did he respond?

Shocked. Definitely shocked.

Yeah,

had no idea, didn't know what work release even was. And I just kind of said like, look, I'll be able to continue working for you if you're okay with this. because he had to kind of vouch for me as well. You there's some paperwork

To work through. So he, was fine with it.

Wow.

then of course, once I got locked up and started doing hard time, I made sure, uh, through, playing a little, game of telephone to get word to him that I wasn't coming back.

Yeah.

and,

He was not able to get word back to me, but when I got out, he still had a job waiting [00:37:00] for me. , which is probably the biggest difference between me and my out and many, many other people I know getting out and, and continuing to really, really struggle.

So when you were then told you couldn't be on work release anymore, you were just locked up, Day in, day out, you were just, you were in prison, you were confined to that space.

What was that like?

So it was a dorm set up. So it was, uh, me and 19 other. all in a single dorm, with a day room on one side that opens at a certain hour when breakfast starts.

And there's like tables in there, where you play cards or, throw dice or whatever it is. And then, , there's where the beds are in the, in the other half and where the one toilet is. I knew people there, uh, luckily in the dorm that I was sent to [00:38:00] so, a lot of it was more just learning the ropes, because it's a totally different way of living. they're pretty specific, unwritten rules. The

Yeah.

person doesn't have a bedsheet, because you you take their bedsheet, and that gets wrapped around the toilet in the In the bedside, as a, a wall essentially.

So you can use the bathroom and privacy. There's ways to make what we call it, a hookup, this kind of like. soup type of thing. Basically cheesy sort of soup, , that you make out of, uh, a handful of ingredients, including Robin Noodle packets, , that are available on commissary.

So a lot of it was just kind of learning the ropes, the unwritten rules, and , then just using. The people that I already knew there, , as like my guides basically to show me the roasters and the first time I ever been locked up for them, it wasn't even close to the first time.

You [00:39:00] kind of tend to grow eyes in the back of your head. I, there were definitely a good many people in there that my first day after getting kicked off work release, I saw someone, get pretty, pretty messed up, and it happened, you know, many times after that, but, yeah, I, I stayed safe the entire time because of the people I knew. , but yeah, can be a strange and unpleasant experience for sure.

Yeah. I think one of the themes that's popping up is. for the purpose of you maintaining your safety, you're very good at building relationships. And I know this to be true of you today, obviously, and that's been like very impactful in your career. And I think it's a big reason why you have been able to do what you've done in the startup world.

But even from the very early days, in high school, because I remember you, at times you had friends in high school, even though you weren't. in high school all that [00:40:00] much, , you were kind of navigating these social circles and I feel like In high school, in prison as well, you have an acute ability to build relationships, for myriad reasons, for business reasons, for safety reasons.

And I feel like it's interesting the ways that that's kind of advanced you at different parts of your life.

It does help to know people, that is for sure.

Yeah.

you can't run a business like drug dealing after a certain level without people, without

Mm hmm.

You need a variety of people on your team, really, to

make sure that, your product is, is getting into the hands of, of customers without, a lot of loss, it's kind of like loss prevention at retail a little bit. So yeah, a hundred percent. And, and that helped me in a variety of settings. I think there's a couple of themes. And they almost run a little bit counter to each other and in some ways, one is always seemingly, I [00:41:00] always seem to find myself back to square one, just me alone in a weird Place in a weird situation, , that I had to figure out and navigate on my own. , that happened so many times and even to this day, uh, because, I was locked up in mental health facilities as an adult several times.

Those experiences every single time. It's just the my first thought, and believe me, adult mental health facilities, way crazier than kids mental health facilities. Adults aren't beating you up as a child, like the guards were doing at these, juvenile facilities, . But the level of mental health issues that you run into with your fellow patients just absolutely through the roof. You're absolutely running into everything you can possibly think of. So, you know, there'll be a guy screaming at the top of his lungs, banging holes in the walls at 2 a. m. [00:42:00] And every time I just, the only thing I can think is here I am again.

I belong in just, uh, you know, some weird facility back to being alone. By myself, fending for myself, , so this is like a feeling that I've had so many times. It is a common theme throughout my life. , but secondly, and maybe kind of on the brighter side also, you know, one is relying on yourself and that's the only thing you have, then the other is relying on other people and those relationships that you've built. helping you through some of these, pretty rough times, because even in the juvenile facilities, I would at some point, start making friends with some of the other kids. And because a lot of them are just like doing drugs or selling drugs or being violent like me, or suicide attempts, just like me. And You know, so there's a flip side of that coin as well.

Yeah, I definitely, as someone who's worked with you, I [00:43:00] see both of those. you can operate fiercely independently. and it's so funny to kind of hold that space, have those two things be true at once. Because you do thrive working independently, but you absolutely thrive, Meeting people,

like when people meet you, you build connections and you build deep connections with them and you're a very engaging person with them. but I can completely understand why you have the ability to be both, , particularly because you have, I mean, even from, again, infancy, you found yourself completely alone, So being able to kind of Operate completely alone. I mean, most people don't build those capabilities in their life. Very few people are ever completely alone. And I mean, this is me speaking from a place of privilege, actually.

So a lot of us who are very well resourced, have a very sound family support structure, things like that. We generally always have someone we can turn to whether it be family, friends, colleagues, and that's definitely my privilege showing that is not absolutely generalizable to everybody.

But I think for [00:44:00] those of us who do come from a place like where I come from. it's hard to think about a time in my life where I didn't have anybody I could turn to., and this kind of speaks to you're leaving prison. I know you went back into some mental health facilities as an adult, but you shared with me once the story of when you left prison if you could speak to that a little bit, I think it kind of carries through that theme of like, who was there, who was there for you when you left prison?

Yeah.

Yeah. Uh, not my, not my family. , in fact, no one except for a friend that I had made. inside. , he was the only person as the gates opened, like, like, like a movie, basically,

hmm.

there

sitting there with a cigarette in his hand. And I actually couldn't believe he was, I didn't believe that connections you made in a place like that really carried forward.

You know, you, you say a lot of things, , like, yeah, we have to go do this and that when we're out,

Mm hmm.

it just doesn't feel [00:45:00] real because it feels like a totally different world. Uh, and, but there he was as the gates opened, uh, kind of slowly in this legitimately, like cinematic sort of scene there he was.

And . I just, I really wanted to walk. It feels great. That's a feeling that I try not to forget. feeling of, , of freedom. It's, it's easy to forget how valuable it is until you lose it, of course. Yeah, it's it's a great, great feeling to have it.

And I just wanted to walk. So we just kind of strolled. You're absolutely right. You know, no matter how many times I I feel like I end up by myself again, and that's just where I belong. Relationships are always the things that carry me through.