Approaching Difficult Conversations, Changing Systems, and Finding Light in the Darkness with Tibisay Hernandez, Founder of A Curious Space

Tibisay Hernandez: [00:00:00] I shouldn't exist, statistically All of these identities that I have throughout history, throughout time, right? There have been many movements to erase or to dehumanize or to oppress many different parts that I l live with every single day. And they haven't worked. It hasn't. worked So we are all going to be okay because even in the darkest times, even in the hardest times, even when we're at each other's throats, there is something about the human spirit that allows us to thrive.

Hello, marginal listeners. I'm so glad to have you back with us this week. I'm not going to lie. I was thinking of taking an off week, heading into Thanksgiving. I figured folks minds will be otherwise occupied with Thanksgiving preparations until I sat down with this week's guest. Because in this week's discussion, we got into [00:01:00] having curious yet crucial conversations, particularly with folks who might have differing views than our own. And I thought to myself, there's no way that I could covet this from folks who are unifying families this week, who might otherwise feel divided.

And, If you're really just looking for some practical guidance or even just comfort going into these discussions, this is definitely going to be the episode for you. So the guest in question is Tibisi Hernandez, founder of A Curious Space, a company specializing in DEI, training, and consultation services.

Heading into this holiday season, Tibi shares practical guidance on approaching conversations with those who hold different views from our own. If Even when those views challenge our own personal identities. She also speaks to her experience as a first generation Dominican American who moved from the Bronx to upstate New York to pursue her education and everything else with excellence.

Throughout her journey, we learn how Tibi constantly changed the systems around her, ultimately culminating in the creation of her own leadership and learning solutions [00:02:00] company in 2020. If you're looking for inspiration on building a business or building a crucial conversation, this is definitely the episode for you.

So with that, I'm so excited to get into it.

Abby Schommer: Well, fabulous. Thank you so much to be for joining us today.

Tibisay Hernandez: Thank you so much for having me.

Abby Schommer: You know, I was thinking back about our first conversation ever. And for those who are watching on video, you can't help, but notice we are both Firmly, firmly, glasses people.

Tibisay Hernandez: Oh yes, glasses are my superpower, outside of my body. That's how I feel. Like Clark Kent takes off his glasses to become Superman. I feel like I put on glasses to become different versions of a superhero. on the day.

Abby Schommer: Oh, tell me, okay, so then tell me more about today's choice of glasses. What are we channeling with today's pair?

Tibisay Hernandez: honestly, today it was very much very demure, very, you know, censored, very librarian, you know, I mean business. I know what I'm [00:03:00] talking about. She is an expert. So these are definitely my get the day done pair of glasses because they're thicker.

They're sturdy and they just instill in me this like sense of like girl power. I love these pair.

Abby Schommer: I love them too, and that is, I can, I can confirm that is exactly what you are channeling through those pair. I, I, I feel like I need to take you very seriously during this conversation.

Tibisay Hernandez: Even though I am such an unserious person sometimes, but yes.

Or delusional. Sure. One or the other. I'm, I'm comfortable with both though.

Abby Schommer: think that channels confidence in and of itself though. I feel like if you're able to introduce some levity into conversations and not take yourself too seriously, I feel like that reads as you being very secure in your competencies.

funny you say that because I, I would reckon you were probably one of the least delusional people I've spoken to. I was going to say, as of lately, and now I'm thinking of all the people I'm offending by saying that, not to say that everybody I speak to is [00:04:00] delusional, but what I mean to say is I don't know, I feel like when I have conversations with you, they're very real, they're very grounded in reality, we're not talking about things and neglecting certain elements of truth or the realities of the world or the systems we live in, when I feel like I talk to you, these are very grounded conversations, You know, acknowledging yes, some of the darkness, but also some of the, some of the lightness that can be born of that darkness. So I don't think you're delusional. I think you're, you're very real, but you're very intentional with, with how you guide your conversations.

Tibisay Hernandez: I try to be, I think that, you know, that comes from being a product of being in this body and You know, being in this society and in this world, I've always had to be very intentional and an empath. in in the ways that you think about being an empath, but for kind of different reasons, constantly surveying how people feel around me and what people are [00:05:00] doing around me and how it affects the dynamics of of the room. But that's because I very much wants to intentionally be a positive light in whatever room that I step into. So to do that, you kind of have to know where the danger zones are and, you know, how people move. So I, I think that I've just been very aware and have had to be very aware. being a woman in this world, you have to be aware of your surroundings. Then you add to that, I grew up in the Bronx. that adds to, you know, my hyper awareness, but more than that, I think biggest for me is definitely being a woman of color and then adding to that a mom, forget it. Because once you, once you're a mom, you hear things, you hear sounds that the average person, I feel like maybe doesn't hear because you're just so in tune to like, Children falling and crushes and all of these different things that happen. [00:06:00] So yeah, I think that I, I very much, like I told you in our conversation, I, I just came into this world in these in betweens and in these much spaces that I needed to be aware of myself and aware of others.

But I, I chose intentionally to, to be a positive. A positive light in, in any space that I'm in. I'm really, really trying to, to be that, even though it's really hard.

Abby Schommer: Yeah, I know. Particularly. Yeah. In certain climates, I'm sure. Well, to be, I'd love to, to with that, get a little bit into your backstory. You know, you said you came into this world needing to be hyper aware of your surroundings, take us a little bit on that journey of what were some of your early life experiences that characterized who you are in the work you do now.

Tibisay Hernandez: Absolutely. So I am originally from the Bronx, New York. I currently reside in upstate New York. Those are two very different environments. Um, I am the daughter of immigrant parents who immigrated [00:07:00] here from the Dominican Republic had a big family. in New York City. So large, large extended family. a lot of different characters, lots of cousins, lots of aunts, um, I just grew up in a very nurturing environment. but being that I was in the Bronx in the eighties and nineties, I also grew up in an environment that, the movie warriors comes to mind. It was very that, um, earlier on in the, you know, late eighties, early nineties, it was still. lots of violence and lots of different things that were happening that as a little girl, I very much was protected seeing some of the graphic pieces of it. But I understood, you know, there were things that my mom did, like we had a a code word when we went into our apartment, just in case anybody was in our apartment. Like if we, she would go into the apartment first. told us if there's someone in here. I'm going to say [00:08:00] this word, you run upstairs to the neighbor's house, to make sure that you're, that you're safe. that hypervigilance very, very early for me of like, there might be a potential chance of an unsafety here are the precautionary ways that you take care of yourself. goodness we never, it never amounted to that, but also growing up, you know, with, um, padlocks on doors, you know, that, that gives you a certain message as a kid, with, uh, gates. uh, large gates on windows that gives you a certain message as a kid, right? So all of these things gave me messages, but I didn't, cause I didn't know any better. I was just like, Oh, everybody, everybody lives this way. This is just what it is.

Abby Schommer: Yeah. Uh, And I'm going to [00:09:00] start by telling you about the

Tibisay Hernandez: like coats for us in winter. And now looking back on it, it's like, these are one of a kind pieces that I get to wear to

Abby Schommer: Uh, Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay, Okay.

Tibisay Hernandez: which was back in the day for those who know, they know, to, to like pick up a Halloween costume.

I was going to the fabric store to, pick out patterns and fabrics for my mom to make, my outfits and things. So that, that's a little bit of like setting the stage of that's my background and where I come from.

Abby Schommer: I love it. We're, we're gonna dive deeper, but I just wanted to pause here and. Say how this calls to [00:10:00] mind how ill equipped many of us are to, I don't know, self preserve and self sustain. Like, I think about myself and I think about the way that I grew up incredibly privileged. I mean, Even just the fact that I grew up in a standalone house. I mean, we didn't grow up in an apartment, right? So the perceived threats were already lower because we weren't in a shared apartment building. So even something as simple as that, right? The, it lessened the likelihood that someone was going to infiltrate our space.

And My mother, you know, we did go to the store to buy, coats and things like that. And it makes me think a lot about how, even around the time of the onset of the pandemic, a lot of us felt for the very first time, very ill equipped to deal with environmental threats. And in so many ways, what a gift that your mother gave you the ability to, Maintain safety and to provide for oneself and to develop very, very useful skills that most of us are many of us who grew up incredibly well resourced don't have.

Tibisay Hernandez: It's [00:11:00] so funny that you say that about the pandemic, because when the pandemic first started, I looked at my husband and he's like, what are we going to do? I go, I've been preparing for a pandemic my whole childhood. ready because like, I wasn't allowed to go anywhere when I was younger. So I already felt like I was like in jail in a lot of ways.

I was like, Oh. Honey, I got this. Don't worry. This is a pandemic queen because she is a Dominican queen and Dominican parents don't let you go nowhere. So I already know what this is. So yeah, it's so funny that you say that because That was the first thing that I said to my husband. I was like, Oh, she is ready.

She is ready for the pandemic because I know what this is.

Abby Schommer: I'm obsessed.

Tibisay Hernandez: was so incredibly, I felt so incredibly privileged because moving up here and starting [00:12:00] my family to your point, I remember. entering my house with my Children for the first time and crying because they got to go upstairs and I never got to go upstairs. Like in all the sitcoms, what do you see? You see a house you see people getting to go upstairs. So all my life, all I wanted was just to have an upstairs to go to, like, you know, and my, you know, a room that was there, you know, and being able to see that. I was able to go from that being like a little kid dream of mine to that happening watching my children run up the stairs for the first time in, in a home. I remember I started sobbing. I really, it made me really emotional because I was like, yes, they get an upstairs,

Abby Schommer: Wow. Yeah. Well, and that's, that's a testament to you, right? I mean, you gifted them that upstairs through, you know, all of the incredible hard work and [00:13:00] resilience and you know, a lot of the lessons that I'm sure were passed down to you from, from your mother, you are kind of living out this legacy.

But that is, so funny that it rings true when it comes to the pandemic, because to your point, yeah, in a lot of ways, you've been sheltered in place for a while. I mean, you couldn't leave your apartment, because of, the purported risks that were happening right outside your door.

Um, even before there was this, pandemic swirling about okay. So. we're growing up with mom. She's, she's making clothes for you. You're living in the Bronx. Tell me more about how you started to venture into, early phases of your career. Did you go to college?

What was that like?

Tibisay Hernandez: Yeah. So I ended up upstate, because I came to the university at Albany for my bachelor's degree. Before that, I, this is how sheltered I was. I went to Catholic schools my entire life. from pre kindergarten all the way up to my senior year of high school, I was in Catholic schools the [00:14:00] New York city area. And, I wanted to get out. was the whole goal. The whole goal was to, was to leave. So I came up here for school, got my bachelor's degree I ended up graduating the year before the recession. so what they don't tell you about college is that when you go to college, that's where you meet your adult connections to the real world. Um, so I did go back home for a little bit, but realized, like, I don't know anybody down here that can get me white collar job, right? My mom, Still works as a janitor, in a building, uh, in Manhattan. dad is an electrician. So he's always been in, in the professions where he's like fixing things But yeah, like I went back, you know, home and there were, there were no resources.

There were no networks for me to kind of venture into to start a career. ,. So I came back up. back upstate because I [00:15:00] knew professors and I knew different professionals in the area. And I also had connections to people who had graduated, who had stayed in the area, could potentially help me find a job. And that's exactly what happened. really my career started in, in education and in that head start. arena. So that early child care head start is a federally funded program that helps underprivileged families to secure child care. And I was a head start kid. I, cut my teeth, doing that kind of work, like being a program coordinator there. And then I learned enough skills to enter into the leadership arena of Early childcare.

And I ended up becoming a childcare director. That was where I understood I wanted to explore in terms

Abby Schommer: [00:16:00] Yeah.

Tibisay Hernandez: depending on what location you were in, you have more resources, just like the school districts. Right? So if you're in a not for profit and it needs to give out more scholarshiping, then there's less resources to buy things and and to update things. and I. know, the not for profit world is an amazing place because you have to wear a lot of hats. But what I learned most that impacted me was about curriculum and lesson planning. And that was something that was newer to me. seeing Women who were experts at raising Children in their community. Being placed in professional development situations where they're being told that because they are not able to articulate an evidence based reason for why it is that they are doing a particular activity with a child, that that's not a valid thing. And I

Abby Schommer: it.

Tibisay Hernandez: this is garbage. And, um, I would start asking a lot of [00:17:00] uncomfortable questions. Other people that had similar questions, but more seasoned in their career, took me on and mentored me and explained to me what the systems were and how to play the game.

Abby Schommer: Mm,

Tibisay Hernandez: pushed me and said, the game doesn't, these rules don't have to be the rules forever and you can fight for us for new rules.

Abby Schommer: Mm.

Tibisay Hernandez: to have to leave here and get more education. That was the impetus for me getting my master's degree in curriculum development. So I did that and, um, I didn't really have the resources or the means. ? And my UAlbany family said, Hey, we have opportunities here in our residential life. we think you would be perfect for but you're going to have to start at the bottom. And I'm like, okay. So I went from being a director of a daycare to a graduate assistant in a residential life, department and moving on to campus my husband, with my daughter [00:18:00] and at the time pregnant with my son. I was doing the masters working in residential life, and I saw similar problems, with our student population that we were serving that I did in the daycares. saw that these students were being given the opportunity to be residence hall assistants. The majority of them came from marginalized backgrounds impoverished backgrounds, things like that. And they had to work really hard. sometimes the line between student and employee was very blurred. it just made me frustrated. It made me really frustrated. So led me to want to really research systems.

Abby Schommer: I love to kind of pause for a second because this is incredible. But one of the themes that I'm seeing pop up is there's this notion of playing the game or changing the game. [00:19:00] And I feel like this absolutely resonates with me and I'm sure a lot of our listeners, particularly when you are in a space where you are.

Not the majority, right? You feel like you need to play to the systems that exist. And that's the only way you're going to get ahead. but you post an alternative, right? Like there is a way that you can actually change those systems. You can take yourself out of the game if you're really looking to change the game.

I love that you bring that up because it poses, you know, a foil to Oh, you just got to play the game. You just have to kind of, exploit. What's already there in order to get ahead I think as well what's really thematic throughout what you're saying is education has been a huge tool for you I asked you at the beginning of this did you go to college because we have a lot of folks on this podcast who don't go to college and.

Me as the millennial. I am. I had a liberal arts education and sometimes I think I take for granted how [00:20:00] much my education afforded me because I don't use my degree in the ways that I thought I would, but I feel like that's me operating from a place of privilege because I actually don't know what it would be like.

What my career would look like had I not gone to college. It's easier for me to write it off and say my degree was useless. But you know, you hitting on this point of it being community and you continuing to go back to this community because you didn't have a network or really a community outside of Albany.

That really was a huge stepping stone for you. And Ultimately, what enabled you to start to change the game was that pervasiveness of education and your college education. Were you the first in your family to go to college to me?

Tibisay Hernandez: Yes. So I'm a first generation student. and that's actually the community that I'm doing on. So I'm currently in the doctoral program. So I continue to pursue, education first generation students because of my experience. And [00:21:00] because I understand that in getting education is how you can step outside of the game and change the rules. it just became a fascinating topic to me, and something that I still, this day, credit for my worldview in, in so many ways, just all the challenges being a first generation student. I can't, I can't even begin to express how difficult it can be and, ignorance can be bliss when you're going through the experience. because you don't know what you don't know, but sadly, it's also a lot about personality. And what I mean by that is that if you don't put yourself out there as a first gen student, if you're not the kind of person that is looking for community and networks and who doesn't ask for help, it can be really easy to get lost. it can be really easy to, you know, fall through the cracks. I don't know if, by nature or nurture, being, in a very [00:22:00] large extended family. I've always had to be loud and make my presence known, to get any airtime and all the kind of fabulous chaos of being in a large, a large family. but yeah, I used, I used my education was the most important tool me.

Abby Schommer: It's incredible. And did, whose idea was it for you to go to college? Was this something that you incepted yourself? Was it something your parents talked to you about? I'm always just curious because neither of your parents went to college. So how did that even come about? Come into fruition.

Tibisay Hernandez: So my dad actually went to college in the Dominican Republic.

Abby Schommer: Okay.

Tibisay Hernandez: So he was an electrical engineer in the Dominican Republic. Those degrees don't translate to the United States. because of that, it's a lot harder when you're a professional in another country that [00:23:00] transition, it's, it's hellish, it's hellish, but no one in my dad's family had gone to college in the Dominican Republic.

He was the first.

Abby Schommer: Got it.

Tibisay Hernandez: It was really, really important. Education was always an important part, but my mom, mom who did not go to college, she met my dad while he was in college she was just like, so intellectually, like, Yes, this is a person I want to be with. This is somebody that's trying to better themselves.

You know, like that was such a big part of his story and him being able to, to do, to do it, to complete his degree for her to see him do it. And then they got married and had me and all the fun stuff. I never knew a time in my life where college wasn't. there was never a time in my life where I'm talking about tiny like kindergarten.

My mom was meticulous about education. She saw it as the way out

Abby Schommer: [00:24:00] Yeah.

Tibisay Hernandez: she had a lot of false starts. With a lot of different like associate degree programs. And sadly, because of our circumstances and situations, she was never able to complete her degree, but she was just such champion and, uh, you do not settle for less, it was very much her trying to keep us out of the fray of the surroundings. knew that education was the way to do that. She saw in me how my determination, I was a nerd. Like I was the biggest nerd. Like I would get, you know, I would get in trouble, Abby, I would get in trouble because my mom would come in and I would be with a flashlight, like reading chapter books under, I was such a nerd.

Abby Schommer: to be. It's gotta be a glasses thing because I was the same way. My mom was like, go to bed.

Tibisay Hernandez: Go to

Abby Schommer: You 10 hours is enough studying. Yeah, I was actually the kid in class. I was, you know, You know, talk about sticking out and [00:25:00] not in the most positive ways. I was the kid that was like, Oh, teacher, you for, you forgot to assign the homework or don't you remember we had this quiz we were supposed to be taking as I wasn't very popular in school, but it, but it does bring me back to what you were saying earlier You know, if you are first generation student, if you are not vocal, if you are not going out of your way to forge connections or let yourself be known, you will kind of fade into the background and I can absolutely see how that's the case.

And, for you, you, you had that voice from a very early age. So you were able to really make a name for yourself in college and use it as a tool to, as your mom said, Get out of, certain circumstances and not just get out of certain circumstances, but change those circumstances, change the system so that, you know, more to bees can enter the system and have their voices heard.

Tibisay Hernandez: My mom was the definition of a Renaissance woman. And [00:26:00] of the biggest things that I got from her was. It doesn't matter people think your limit is, those limits don't exist if you work hard and you push hard, right? So even though we were in a tenement building and outside it looked great, when you're walking into my house, it's looking nice. She's making sure that she's creating spaces and making her reality what she wanted it to be. She never settled. And she used to tell me that I do not understand yet. powerful I was and that I would understand when I would get out into the world and be around other people. But there's a responsibility that comes with that.

So I just always that I was meant to do things in excellent ways. Maybe not extraordinary, but if there was a way to be excellent and to make it precise and make it look beautiful, and [00:27:00] evoke feeling like, yes, this person really put their heart into it. That was the goal. And I think I attacked, and I still attack everything in my life through that lens.

want it to be excellent, which can be, which can be tough sometimes, you know, the perfectionist vibes. my healing journey has taught me that I have to let some of that stuff go. But yeah, it definitely was like, will whatever's around you.

Doesn't have to be what defines you.

Abby Schommer: Yeah, and you can kind of create light out of darkness too, which goes back to something you said really early in the show, but okay, so tracking back to, we talked about how you were back at Albany you were a graduate student. Is that correct?

Tibisay Hernandez: Yes,

Abby Schommer: All right. Take us from there. What happens in your journey with curriculum development and all that jazz?

Tibisay Hernandez: ended up getting my master's degree, getting a couple of promotions within the university, one that afforded me the ability to move off campus with my [00:28:00] full family. And can I just say, as an aside, raising your family, your young family on a college campus may seem like the craziest thing, but out to all of my girls. my undergraduate ladies at that time, because they all took care of my kids. helped my son literally crawl. it was just such a healthy, amazing community. I know that sounds insane, but like the fact that my kids got to go to like football games and basketball games, and they were like just around the corner. Just the love and the outpouring of love that these young people gave to my family. can't even express to you. So even though it sounds kooky obviously I don't recommend it for everyone. It was an amazing experience.

Abby Schommer: it doesn't sound kooky to me because you're speaking to a woman whose husband works in education and we often think about him getting a job that will situate us on campus and we will get a [00:29:00] free house, free housing accommodations like particularly in this climate. There is nothing more appealing than that.

so that is a very real consideration. For my husband and I. It does not sound crazy. And like you said, it takes a village and it all comes back to community.. So, I need no convincing on this front. And if any, any of our listeners do, I feel like maybe now they've kind of changed their opinion

Tibisay Hernandez: yeah,

Abby Schommer: or not, but,

Tibisay Hernandez: Well, maybe not, but still there were, there was some, some crazy fire drills. drills with three months old at two or three in the morning weren't great, but few

Abby Schommer: oh, you're talking about literal fire drills. Oh,

Tibisay Hernandez: literal fire drills

Abby Schommer: because some, because some kid put their easy Mac in the microwave without water after they came home from a party at three in the morning.

Tibisay Hernandez: like lit up a duvet

Abby Schommer: Yeah.

Tibisay Hernandez: yeah yeah

Abby Schommer: Yep.

Tibisay Hernandez: that piece but Yeah, the community piece of it was great. I ended up getting a job as an assistant director in career and professional [00:30:00] development department on campus again, another eye opening opportunity for me to see inequity at work systems at work, right?

Because I had first chance students that were coming in marginalized students from all different backgrounds that were coming in international students that were coming in with all of these barriers to getting internships to getting jobs, all of these things. And my job was as. Kind of like the concierge of the employers.

But I ended up connecting with students who were seeking my advice. They weren't a lot. of people that look like me in the office. And because I had such a long standing relationship with other professionals on campus, a lot of kids ended up getting sent to me, because I was a career counselor, but just because I was Tibby and she works at career, she'll, she'll help you. that really ended up helping me to then connections with students that were working in the diversity space. [00:31:00] it or not. we had students that would come in and talk to me that were also working in our diversity and inclusion office. And those students connected me to our diversity officer at the time. And, uh, we would just get to chit chatting about things that I saw that were inequitable on campus. , and barriers that I saw from a career mobility perspective for our students. That led to, the CDO at the time asking me if I

Abby Schommer: Um, Okay. Okay. Okay.

Tibisay Hernandez: amazing implicit bias educator. Um, he did [00:32:00] the famous Starbucks shutdown day, has trained all of LAPD. just an amazing human being, but very funny and very much someone like me that looks for the light in the harshness of this kind of landscape. So he saw something in me and was like, Hey, I would love for you to come and help me out with a couple of contracts that I have and, and facilitate, these conversations. And then I said, yes, please. I would love that. So for all of 2019, I was going down to the, to New York city on top of my full time job on top of family every single weekend, and doing, implicit bias trainings. for New York City Department of Education educators. I ended up training over over 1, 500 people during that one year. It's crazy. I learned a lot, but it was trial by fire. I to figure out how to anticipate the [00:33:00] really big really tough questions that people would ask me the questions that would basically erase my identity right on stage.

You know, those kinds of questions. and that's when I realized, like, oh, in order to do this work, like, I really have to have a therapist, mental health plan, community of support. Because, I'm talking about Children being hurt in schools and I'm getting pushed back, Because I'm equating it to there being a racial component. that we're seeing there's disproportionality in these communities and, and how our history of racism in this country impacts of these children to today and to get pushback. Right. And you're in New York city, right? It's like, it's supposed to be the liberal, whatever, whatever. These things are baked into a lot of our systems. So we have to get out of our minds, this like fallacy that these things don't exist. Um,

[00:34:00] learned just like I learned in the daycare centers, just like the not for profit world, like child by fire, how to manage your own business, basically. I learned so many things during that experience that allowed me to become better facilitator, but also showed me that can put together. trainings and these educational environments and that I could do it around different topics. And I started to do that for other colleges , they would start calling me for workshops and keynote opportunities. and that really launched this like fire and desire to, to build curious spaces, which is what I ended up my company a curious space. So yeah, that that's kind of the [00:35:00] lead up to entrepreneurship.

There was some corporate gigs in there. There were, some government. Opportunities that I did in there as well. was really the of timeline and how I ended up where I am now.

Abby Schommer: Wow. Okay, so I'm gonna ask you a difficult question that I'm sure you've been asked before. in light of recent events I just have to ask. you gave an example of how you were being asked questions that invalidated or erased your identity, and I think we are in a time now where certain conversations, regardless of the What side of the table you're on certain conversations that were once political now feel personal certain topics of discussion feel like you're calling into question someone's identity if you are somebody for which that is how you feel, how can you have those [00:36:00] conversations in a way that you are still honoring your own identity and you are.

Self preserving. How do you, how do you do that? Right? Like I'll, I'll give a very basic example, like using myself, say, I'm trying to have a conversation with somebody and they don't believe that women are discriminated against in startup environments, or that the reason that female founded teams, get 2 percent of VC dollars is because women are just bad at pitching.

How How do I. Approach those conversations with curiosity, compassion, if I feel like the question in and of itself is a complete denial of, of me and my experience,

Tibisay Hernandez: I think you have to consent to be in those conversations. First of all, I think a lot of times what ends up happening is that these conversations around identity are being thrust upon people that have specific [00:37:00] identities and they don't feel like they have the time. to process if they are in the right state of mind to engage in this topic at this moment. So the first thing I would say is you don't have to, you don't have to engage in the conversation if you are in an emotional place that feels like you are being harmed. And you don't have enough trust built between yourself and this person to really go into the realities how women get discriminated against, right?

Because while they are very, very important, the vehicle through which they commute when you are giving a message is very, very important. if you are not in the place. Where you can yourself and, and [00:38:00] be detached from the identity enough to have the conversation. It's going to end up being something that's either harmful for you or not productive for the pair of you. So What I do is I have to detach myself from the identity that's being brought into question. that way I can ask more questions and so that way I don't dismiss the person.

Abby Schommer: do you have,

Tibisay Hernandez: mm hmm.

Abby Schommer: do you have, do you have any advice for folks who. Might want to try to disengage or detach from their identity so they can go into these conversations. And if you want to be, if you want to start charging me a fee because now you're basically giving me a curious space workshop, um, please send me a bill after this recording.

Tibisay Hernandez: No, no, not at all. I, is what I want and people to be able to, to do. One of the biggest tricks that has [00:39:00] helped me has been to look at people who asked me really invalidating questions as kindergarten children, this is not in any way to make, to make a diminutive version of this person that's in front of me. What it allows me to do is have compassion I'm more compassionate towards children because I feel like, you were taught something. that now you are regurgitating,

Abby Schommer: Yes.

Tibisay Hernandez: right? Without a lot of information. So I can make the choice in this moment to educate you. I can consent and decide, okay, I'm going educate you from a place of compassion and from a place of curiosity to understand how you got here, to this train of thought, right? So when I find myself feeling [00:40:00] harmed in a conversation, I know that it is because it's a call back to something, right?

Or it's, straight up in your face, people denying what we know is true in society. That's when I start asking more questions and I start giving less answers because what you'll find. Abby is that

sometimes they'll get frustrated, right? And at that point, you know what you're dealing with. At that point, you understand that this person doesn't want to engage. In real dialogue with you, they just kind of want to spew their facts. And again, that gives you enough information to say [00:41:00] whether you want to continue or whether you need to recuse yourself from the moment,

Abby Schommer: Completely, and it might indicate that that person actually hasn't consented to the type of conversation you want to have either. Because if that person wanted to have a conversation that is factual, they wouldn't be having the emotional responses. So I think my husband, to his credit, It does a lot of this work now.

He works in curriculum development and education and he's history department head. So, all things around public policy as well. And he always, he always says you have to be very clear. in all circumstances, you need to be very clear on the type of conversation you're having with someone.

Tibisay Hernandez: Yeah.

Abby Schommer: I think a lot of the activations and a lot of the just transgressions Or just misinterpretations come from a place of two different people thinking they're having the same type of conversation, but they're having very different conversations.

Tibisay Hernandez: There's a power in threes. and this is what I mean by that. [00:42:00] Somebody else being a witness to the conversation, can also help to kind of, depending on who the person is, but that's, that's one thing that I learned from actually couples counseling is that having a third person in the room that can restate. Because as the messenger, sometimes you become the wah, wah, wah, wah, right? You become the talking head to the other person. now they're responding to you from a place of not even really hearing what you said and having that third person kind of be in the conversation helps to of say, no, well, that's not really what she said though. This is, this is actually. What she said, right? Isn't that, isn't that what you like? Cause people don't know how to do active listening and active dialoguing. just waiting to respond.

Abby Schommer: Yeah, they're there to defend.

Tibisay Hernandez: Right. So think that the only thing that I've learned that I can control is myself.

Abby Schommer: [00:43:00] Mm hmm.

Tibisay Hernandez: And having cognitive shortcuts, like imagining a really belligerent person who's in front of me as a child. And as someone who was taught to be belligerent and taught

Abby Schommer: Mm hmm.

Tibisay Hernandez: and thinking about them as someone who wasn't always that,

Abby Schommer: Yeah,

Tibisay Hernandez: me from a compassion place,

Abby Schommer: and I think it too goes back to When I think I think this is such a helpful reframe by the way, so thank you for sharing it and Similarly, I want to not frame this as a pejorative thing It's not like we are saying these people were belittling them to children, but I think a nice clear Kind of parallel between children and what we're talking about now, too, is inherent in children is the belief that children are all born with pure intentions, right?

And I think that the same is true of people. We're not born to want to invalidate certain people's existence or not want [00:44:00] to promote pure intentions. Certain people's basic human rights. Like we don't come into this world with these ideas. They are indoctrinated in us. And I think the second we can acknowledge that and we can hold space for the person at the core of every single conversation that's being had, It gives you a little bit more runway and patience to try to peel back those layers through conversation because you know that there's something a heart on the other side of that conversation that is pure and that is well intentioned.

Tibisay Hernandez: can't do that if you're in fight, flight, or fawn mode. Like, it's really hard to, like, be in this, empathetic place when your body is so triggered, and going out of whack. It's hard to like find the words. And that's where I tell people because I've had people say, what are you telling me that I can't have a conversation until I'm completely healed?

And I say, no, what I mean is that you have to [00:45:00] practice it. You have to practice how to access curiosity and language when you are in a triggered space. But you can only do that if you can start to acknowledge and start to feel your body when it is. So that way you can reach for those tools that can make conversation more accessible to you.

But

Abby Schommer: yeah, and I think this goes back to something we were talking about off air. I am so privileged that I get to surround myself with people who reinforce my ways of thinking, right? Like, I'm an entrepreneur. So I, you know, my coworkers, I choose effectively and, you know, You know, I think this is very timely.

We have the holidays coming up next week is Thanksgiving. And there's a big part of me that thinks, Hey, you know, it would be a great episode to release Tuesday next week. This one. Um, I know a lot of us are having a lot of anxiety going into dinner table conversations beginning next [00:46:00] week. Myself included because I live in a little bit of an echo chamber.

I, my social media, like the algorithm knows very well, the types of content and the types of ideas that I. I'm drawn to and I work with people who think very similarly to me and so I'm not getting in those reps like you're talking about. I'm not practicing these conversations, which is what makes them feel so much more formidable because I don't have to access these tools on a daily basis.

So what advice would you give to people like me? Because we do have a lot of entrepreneurs who listen to this podcast. they get to curate. Their little their circles every day. How do they get in the reps of practicing how to be in curious spaces and lead with that curiosity?

Tibisay Hernandez: Use the same tools that you use for your entrepreneurship, right? Do the market research, and don't think that just because, you are surrounded [00:47:00] by this echo chamber, that there aren't some dissenting thoughts in there as well, because there are like people are more nuanced than we give them credit for.

And they also know how to shut up when they're in an echo chamber. You know, people know how to mask, um, potential thoughts that have because they're afraid of

Abby Schommer: Yeah.

Tibisay Hernandez: things up, right? Because they know that the echo chamber might have a visceral response to it. So they don't even, they don't even bring it up. will tell you that the most. powerful and important human conversations I've had have with folks that have been privileged in ways that I have not been in my life, that have completely different political ideologies than I do. and it's helped me stay hopeful, especially in these kinds of times.

And I think what people will not expect, especially now in the political climate, [00:48:00] in people won't expect your grace. They won't. People are expecting for us to go at each other. And I think this is a, it's, it's kind of been that way for a while now. pitting each other against each other. And I think that it's important, especially as entrepreneurs for

Abby Schommer: Okay. I'm going to take a moment to introduce our new speaker, I'm Katelyn Poole, and I'm the co founder and going to ask Katelyn to introduce herself now.

Tibisay Hernandez: providing a service to someone like at the end of the day, it's human beings are your customers in a lot of ways, right? No matter what, even if it's B to B, like you're dealing with with human beings. I think that the same kind of tenacity that we put into our Entrepreneurship, the same kind of research to see what works, what doesn't work. I think entrepreneurs are the most curious people. I think we have

Abby Schommer: [00:49:00] I

Tibisay Hernandez: all of us because we're taught to go out there and build something out of nothing out of our ideas. So I think that if you can build a business, You can build a conversation. You can build a relationship.

Abby Schommer: don't know if we need to say anything else. I mean, quite frankly, that is one of the most empowering things I think I've heard this week. to be you have given our audience is so, so much, but I want to ask, well, first of all, I definitely want to talk about what's on the horizon for a curious space. But before we get into that, if there's anything else you would love our audiences to walk away with having listened to this conversation, what would that be?

Tibisay Hernandez: I shouldn't exist, statistically All of these identities that I have throughout history, throughout time, right? There have been many movements to erase or to dehumanize or to oppress many different parts that I l live with every single day. [00:50:00] And they haven't worked. It hasn't. worked So we are all going to be okay because even in the darkest times, even in the hardest times, even when we're at each other's throats, there is something about the human spirit that allows us to thrive. every day that I wake up, understand that because I know that someone a part of my ancestral line couldn't even imagine the fact that I have a bachelor's degree, that I have the home that I have, that I'm getting a doctoral degree, that I'm able to do the things or have the conversations that I get to have every single day. So on to that hope Become the groundwork layers for the

Abby Schommer: Yeah. Um, Yeah. [00:51:00] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tibisay Hernandez: to a better society and to a better humanity as a whole. We might not get to see it, But we sure as heck get to build it, so let's not give up hope.

Abby Schommer: That's so, so beautiful. And again, going back to this notion of you don't just have to play to the systems that exist. You can start to build your own system. So that's, strong belief in yourself and a strong belief in people that people can be part of new systems. And I think Yeah, I mean, just listening to you talk, I can see how you instill that hope and that belief in people every single day to be what is on the horizon for a curious space, any new developments, and if any of our listeners want to reach out to you, find out how they can get involved.

What's the best way of doing so?

Tibisay Hernandez: [00:52:00] Sure. So folks can go to a dash curious dash space. com. and you can also find me on Instagram at a curious space. Facebook, we have a curious space community as well on Facebook. So folks can definitely find me there and right now is, Really, really exciting times. I have a lot of trainings that are coming up, a couple of keynote opportunities, but what I'm most excited about is a toolkit that I am developing for organizations around being a for culture, and building tools and ways for folks to be able to not only look at. inclusive practices within their organizations, but also do trainings, do, assessments of their organization. So I'm really building right now, an all inclusive, to use that [00:53:00] word to overuse that word, but it's, it's really a product. To help guide our DEI professionals that might be in a tough spot right now because of where we are or that just might want to ready to go systems that they can implement some low hanging fruit type stuff so I'm excited. I'm excited for the holidays. Super excited for 2025. and I'm hopeful. More than anything else, I'm hopeful and just ready to do some more good work. Cause I feel like now people are even more like, no, we have to do this work.

We have to connect, we have to communicate. So I'm excited to be a conduit for that, for folks. So yeah, definitely reach out.

Abby Schommer: I love it. Yeah, I love it. I'm equally as hopeful for what 2025 has in store, particularly with organizations like yours existing and people like you at the helm. Um, it makes me incredibly hopeful for what the future has in store. So [00:54:00] thank you so much to be, I can't say it enough. you've been so, so generous with your time and your Intel today, and thank you for continuing to shine a light when we need it most.

Thank you so much for listening to the marginal. podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the team at Cal pal with music. Bye Siddhartha. If you like what you heard today, please don't forget to. To rate, review and subscribe to the podcast. So you never miss an episode. You can view full episode show notes@marginalpodcast.com and follow us at. At marginal podcast on Instagram. Thank you so much and we'll catch you next time.